From heffling at whidbey.com  Tue Dec  1 19:02:30 2009
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 18:02:30 -0800
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
References: <mailman.7.1259694019.13395.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <19CDB4F88B7E441293B62E3BDA94F814@Desktophp>

Jon and Julie,

I agree w/ you, but "love does not rejoice in unrighteousness" , either. And 
yes, Julie, Jesus did forgive, show compassion and go against the law ( of 
bondage, not freedom; He came to give a new law-grace), but He also let the 
Pharisees and others know clearly and decisively about their hypocrisy and 
wrong hearts.  Yes, we should treat others as both of you have said, but we 
also need to have standards of conduct, and we are not to go along with what 
God clearly says is sin (Psalm 1); in this case, homosexuality, ( Romans 
1:26-28,32) cold blooded murder; Exodus 20:13. (that's what abortion is- a 
human baby dies).  We can love the individual and treat them w/ kindness, as 
God does us, but we can still take a stand against wrong behavior, as God 
does when we sin.

Jesus is divisive. We can't be His and follow everything else. John 14:6 
says, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father 
except by me." People don't like that. (esp. these days). They want to have 
Jesus and any other belief, god, too.... but to truly be His, we have to 
give all the rest up. Isaiah says "I am God and there is no other."

Our laws have much to do with the siege Christians are under. The more 
liberal and ungodly they become, the less freedom to express our faith as 
Christians, there is. ( and more persecution). Our nation was founded on 
Judeo- Christian values, and that is, I believe, what made it strong. ( God 
blesses us when we follow after Him). The more we turn away from those 
values, the more we as a nation turn away from God's blessing. We just have 
to read the Old Testament to know how God deals with ungodly nations. So 
it's not just about us as Christians, it's ultimately, I believe, has to do 
with the fate of our nation. Jesus said, "He who is not with Me, is against 
Me." That's what motivates me to take a stand against what He calls sin, 
because I don't want to be in the position of being against Him by passively 
letting it go on and turning my eyes the other way. This doesn't mean I'm 
perfect; I'm not. I often need His forgiveness. But I  believe, He's called 
us to try to live lives that please Him and don't just go along with 
everything. Matt.5:14& 16 say we're to be lights on a hill that shine for 
His glory.

Blessings,
Grace
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org>
To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1


> Send ClassOf80 mailing list submissions to
> classof80 at rvaalumni.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> classof80-request at rvaalumni.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> classof80-owner at rvaalumni.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ClassOf80 digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand (JULIE LINDHOLM)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:08:31 -0800 (PST)
> From: JULIE LINDHOLM <lindholmsi at yahoo.com>
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand
> Message-ID: <261522.90491.qm at web112006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Tory, Jon,? thank you for food for thought, - i think i'm stuffed.
>
> i hope?everybody had a warm and loving thanksgiving.
>
> i did read the declaration and the Gospels, and?I find?the line in the 
> sand to be divisive.????
>
> Whether its against the rogue christians or churches or against the 
> government, it's divisive.
>
> The church's, and?family's, and?soul's only?true refuge is compassion.?
> And though some?Christians?feel indignant at the lawlessness of?it all, 
> Christ wrote in the dirt in a gesture that was inclusive, compassionate, 
> and at the expense of the law.?? He spoke continuously of forgiveness, 
> dignity, radical sharing, and love.?
>
>
> i agree that?the church, the family and the soul are under siege (as 
> always) but i doubt that?US laws about gay rights, embryos or civil 
> marriages?have?much to do with that.??
>
> We do have an ever?wilder?& crazier media/entertainment world to try to 
> raise kids in...
> i do not envy you guys!!??
> on the other hand there's a lot of great?art out there, you just have to 
> walk thru it with your kids, in constant communication, huh??
>
>
> Peace? -? ?Julie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Tory Walker <tory at trwengineering.com>
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 11:00:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand
>
>
> Jon,
> ?
> You have written an excelent ?rebuttal.?? I wholeheartedly agree with your 
> assessment of the church, of our call to love unconditionally, and of our 
> failure, in many ways, to do so.? If this declaration causes anyone to 
> shift their focus away from our first love and that highest calling you 
> have so well reminded us of, then I would say trash it.? As long as the 
> world can justifiably be repulsed by a harsh and condemning church, we are 
> failures.
> ?
> I would only say that perhaps you were viewing this declaration as some 
> Christian leaders attempting to set a course for the church.? That is not 
> the intent.? It is meant to be a wake up call to a church that has been 
> moving away from eternal, non-negotiable truths to achieve unity at any 
> cost.? All of us who are parents know what tough love is, and if we 
> compromise in an attempt to show ?love?, it will not end up well for those 
> we think we are loving.
> ?
> I will admit it is not perfect, but as I wrote to Nancy, I think it is 
> remarkable that such a diverse group of Christian leaders could pull this 
> together.
> ?
> Tory
> ?
> ?
> ?
> From:Jonathan Bainbridge [mailto:jonathan.bainbridge at acssa.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:23 AM
> To: RVA class of '80
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand
> ?
> Tory,
> ?
> I looked it up and down, but I was mostly struck by how little there was 
> to help me be a better example of Christ in my daily life. If we 
> ?evangelical Christians? would spend more of our time exampling Christ and 
> less in pointing our fingers at the world around us we would draw more 
> into His following. Christ didn?t use a stick to drive people to God, He, 
> by example, drew people to follow Him to God. If we spend our time 
> pointing our fingers at others, telling them how terrible they are, we 
> will never be able, again, to lead by example.
> ?
> Maybe if the declaration that was signed by these ?leaders? included 
> something about love of our fellow men it would seem less like railing 
> against the world we are called to love. Out of the 11 times the 
> ?declaration? mentions love, only once was that love directed outward at 
> our fellow man, every other time the reference was Goo?s love or, 
> selfishly, love directed inward. As long as the ?evangelical? among us 
> beat our chests and whine about how bad we have it we will never draw unto 
> Christ those that need His love.
> ?
> Here is my rebuttal ?Kansas City Declaration? ? an open arms invitation;
> ?
> 1.????? love your enemies,
> 2.????? bless them that curse you,
> 3.????? do good to them that hate you,
> 4.????? and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you
> ?
> We, in ?the church? have forgotten that which should be our first love, 
> what anyone in ?The Church? would know, that which we should strive for 
> and fix our eyes on; to be an example not a detriment, a lure not a 
> deterrent, a light and not a laser.
> ?
> ?36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus 
> replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your 
> soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 
> 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the 
> Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
> ?
> _________________________________________________________
> Jonathan Bainbridge
> Avant Ministries / CrossWorld Shared Services
> ITGuy at acssa.org | w 816.479.7051 | c 816.550.0971
> ?
> ?
> From:Tory Walker [mailto:tory at trwengineering.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:00 PM
> To: RVA class of '80
> Subject: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand
> ?
> Without apology, I am asking you, my classmates, to join me and many 
> others who have read and signed this most important and historic 
> declaration defending life, marriage, and freedom, as given to us by God 
> Himself.? Chuck Colson believes this is one of the most important 
> documents produced by the American church.? I agree, and that is why I am 
> sending this to you.? When you have signed it, spread the news far and 
> wide.? "You are the light of the world. Acity that is set onahill cannot 
> be hidden.? Matt. 5:14
> ?
> http://manhattandeclaration.org/
> ?
> Tory
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> HTML attachment scrubbed and removed
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
>
> End of ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> **************************************** 



From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Tue Dec  1 21:55:59 2009
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 20:55:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <19CDB4F88B7E441293B62E3BDA94F814@Desktophp>
Message-ID: <813387.38289.qm@web180115.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Grace (& all)

Forgive me for being provocative, but I really want to comment - and ask a question.? First, I think your comment about Jesus and the Pharisees is instructive.? Think about it. He spoke against the Pharisees quite a bit, but not really against the government at all.? The Pharisees were a part of the religious community who? were pretty separatist and judgmental of other? people (kind of a focus on the family of their time).? Jesus attacked them because of their distortion of worship of God, not for? their immorality.? In fact, he had a lot to say about them, part of the jewish tradition at that point, and little negative to say about the other faiths that were in the area.? Hmmm.

The question I? have is about where? you feel less free to express your faith.? I would really like to know how you experience that.? If you are referring to more people who exist who are critical of the way you express your faith, I can certainly see that.? But actual limits to your ability to express your faith.? I don't see it.

Peace and compassion everyone,

Mark

--- On Tue, 12/1/09, Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com> wrote:

From: Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com>
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 8:02 PM

Jon and Julie,

I agree w/ you, but "love does not rejoice in unrighteousness" , either. And yes, Julie, Jesus did forgive, show compassion and go against the law ( of bondage, not freedom; He came to give a new law-grace), but He also let the Pharisees and others know clearly and decisively about their hypocrisy and wrong hearts.? Yes, we should treat others as both of you have said, but we also need to have standards of conduct, and we are not to go along with what God clearly says is sin (Psalm 1); in this case, homosexuality, ( Romans 1:26-28,32) cold blooded murder; Exodus 20:13. (that's what abortion is- a human baby dies).? We can love the individual and treat them w/ kindness, as God does us, but we can still take a stand against wrong behavior, as God does when we sin.

Jesus is divisive. We can't be His and follow everything else. John 14:6 says, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except by me." People don't like that. (esp. these days). They want to have Jesus and any other belief, god, too.... but to truly be His, we have to give all the rest up. Isaiah says "I am God and there is no other."

Our laws have much to do with the siege Christians are under. The more liberal and ungodly they become, the less freedom to express our faith as Christians, there is. ( and more persecution). Our nation was founded on Judeo- Christian values, and that is, I believe, what made it strong. ( God blesses us when we follow after Him). The more we turn away from those values, the more we as a nation turn away from God's blessing. We just have to read the Old Testament to know how God deals with ungodly nations. So it's not just about us as Christians, it's ultimately, I believe, has to do with the fate of our nation. Jesus said, "He who is not with Me, is against Me." That's what motivates me to take a stand against what He calls sin, because I don't want to be in the position of being against Him by passively letting it go on and turning my eyes the other way. This doesn't mean I'm perfect; I'm not. I often need His forgiveness. But I? believe, He's called
 us to try to live lives that please Him and don't just go along with everything. Matt.5:14& 16 say we're to be lights on a hill that shine for His glory.

Blessings,
Grace
----- Original Message ----- From: <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org>
To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1


> Send ClassOf80 mailing list submissions to
> classof80 at rvaalumni.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> classof80-request at rvaalumni.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> classof80-owner at rvaalumni.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ClassOf80 digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>???1. Re: Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand (JULIE LINDHOLM)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:08:31 -0800 (PST)
> From: JULIE LINDHOLM <lindholmsi at yahoo.com>
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand
> Message-ID: <261522.90491.qm at web112006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Tory, Jon,? thank you for food for thought, - i think i'm stuffed.
> 
> i hope?everybody had a warm and loving thanksgiving.
> 
> i did read the declaration and the Gospels, and?I find?the line in the sand to be divisive.????
> 
> Whether its against the rogue christians or churches or against the government, it's divisive.
> 
> The church's, and?family's, and?soul's only?true refuge is compassion.?
> And though some?Christians?feel indignant at the lawlessness of?it all, Christ wrote in the dirt in a gesture that was inclusive, compassionate, and at the expense of the law.?? He spoke continuously of forgiveness, dignity, radical sharing, and love.?
> 
> 
> i agree that?the church, the family and the soul are under siege (as always) but i doubt that?US laws about gay rights, embryos or civil marriages?have?much to do with that.??
> 
> We do have an ever?wilder?& crazier media/entertainment world to try to raise kids in...
> i do not envy you guys!!??
> on the other hand there's a lot of great?art out there, you just have to walk thru it with your kids, in constant communication, huh??
> 
> 
> Peace? -? ?Julie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Tory Walker <tory at trwengineering.com>
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 11:00:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand
> 
> 
> Jon,
> ?
> You have written an excelent ?rebuttal.?? I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the church, of our call to love unconditionally, and of our failure, in many ways, to do so.? If this declaration causes anyone to shift their focus away from our first love and that highest calling you have so well reminded us of, then I would say trash it.? As long as the world can justifiably be repulsed by a harsh and condemning church, we are failures.
> ?
> I would only say that perhaps you were viewing this declaration as some Christian leaders attempting to set a course for the church.? That is not the intent.? It is meant to be a wake up call to a church that has been moving away from eternal, non-negotiable truths to achieve unity at any cost.? All of us who are parents know what tough love is, and if we compromise in an attempt to show ?love?, it will not end up well for those we think we are loving.
> ?
> I will admit it is not perfect, but as I wrote to Nancy, I think it is remarkable that such a diverse group of Christian leaders could pull this together.
> ?
> Tory
> ?
> ?
> ?
> From:Jonathan Bainbridge [mailto:jonathan.bainbridge at acssa.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:23 AM
> To: RVA class of '80
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand
> ?
> Tory,
> ?
> I looked it up and down, but I was mostly struck by how little there was to help me be a better example of Christ in my daily life. If we ?evangelical Christians? would spend more of our time exampling Christ and less in pointing our fingers at the world around us we would draw more into His following. Christ didn?t use a stick to drive people to God, He, by example, drew people to follow Him to God. If we spend our time pointing our fingers at others, telling them how terrible they are, we will never be able, again, to lead by example.
> ?
> Maybe if the declaration that was signed by these ?leaders? included something about love of our fellow men it would seem less like railing against the world we are called to love. Out of the 11 times the ?declaration? mentions love, only once was that love directed outward at our fellow man, every other time the reference was Goo?s love or, selfishly, love directed inward. As long as the ?evangelical? among us beat our chests and whine about how bad we have it we will never draw unto Christ those that need His love.
> ?
> Here is my rebuttal ?Kansas City Declaration? ? an open arms invitation;
> ?
> 1.????? love your enemies,
> 2.????? bless them that curse you,
> 3.????? do good to them that hate you,
> 4.????? and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you
> ?
> We, in ?the church? have forgotten that which should be our first love, what anyone in ?The Church? would know, that which we should strive for and fix our eyes on; to be an example not a detriment, a lure not a deterrent, a light and not a laser.
> ?
> ?36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
> ?
> _________________________________________________________
> Jonathan Bainbridge
> Avant Ministries / CrossWorld Shared Services
> ITGuy at acssa.org | w 816.479.7051 | c 816.550.0971
> ?
> ?
> From:Tory Walker [mailto:tory at trwengineering.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:00 PM
> To: RVA class of '80
> Subject: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand
> ?
> Without apology, I am asking you, my classmates, to join me and many others who have read and signed this most important and historic declaration defending life, marriage, and freedom, as given to us by God Himself.? Chuck Colson believes this is one of the most important documents produced by the American church.? I agree, and that is why I am sending this to you.? When you have signed it, spread the news far and wide.? "You are the light of the world. Acity that is set onahill cannot be hidden.? Matt. 5:14
> ?
> http://manhattandeclaration.org/
> ?
> Tory
> 
> 
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
> HTML attachment scrubbed and removed
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> 
> 
> End of ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> **************************************** 


_______________________________________________
ClassOf80 mailing list
ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
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From heffling at whidbey.com  Tue Dec  1 23:25:40 2009
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 22:25:40 -0800
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fw: "Speechless...Silencing the Christians" airs at
	9:00 pm Eastern tonight on INSP
Message-ID: <E669942C8E5E4A9B93FAFC2C4A422A62@Desktophp>

AFA ActionAlertHi Mark, Julie, all~

I'm not able to share my faith w/ my clients as a healthcare worker. I'm not sure if it's actually illegal, but it's definitely taught that I'm not to share my beliefs.I can potentially loose my job if a client were to tell my bosses that I did so. The conscience clause that for years has allowed health care workers to not participate in procedures they are adverse to based on their beliefs is under fire and could be reversed meaning, that if told to take part in an abortion or embryonic stem cell procedure, I cannot refuse without threat of losing my job.

 This Speechless Series( web address below) has many accounts of Christians in USA  in the last few years, not able to say the name of God in a graduation address, celebrate Jesus birth in school and so forth. There are several 1/2 hr. segments of this and it's reality today in USA. Also, our military chaplins have been reprimanded for praying in Jesus name! It's all around us. The media just doesn't broadcast it much. And you must know that the ACLU is doing all it can to get any mention of Jesus, God, and anything to do w/ them out of our nation. I believe it's now law ( or at least folks are trying to get it so) that if a pastor preaches against homosexuality  ( which the Bible is clearly against - Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction another example) they can be arrested if someone complains to authorities. I strongly encourage you to listen to this series. 

American Center for Law and Justice and another- Rutherford Foundation, I think, are continually fighting cases for Christians who've faced legal battles for expressing their faith. It's freedom of speech for those who are "politically correct", but it's rapidly becoming no freedom of speech to rebutt "politically correct" views.

Blessings,
Grace


----- Original Message ----- 
From: American Family Association 
To: heffling at whidbey.com 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:08 AM
Subject: "Speechless...Silencing the Christians" airs at 9:00 pm Eastern tonight on INSP


                
                 
                  Donald E. Wildmon
                  Founder and
                  Chairman  
           
     
        
     Please help us get this information into the hands of as many people as possible by forwarding it to your entire e-mail list of family and friends. 

            "Speechless...Silencing the Christians" airs at 9:00 pm Eastern tonight on INSP. Also available on AFA.net. 

            Tonight's episode is "Defending the Faithful" 


            Dear Grace,

             
            Facing rising persecution and discrimination, many Christians feel hopeless, uncertain what to do. This episode of ?Speechless . . . Silencing the Christians? is filled with practical advice and realistic suggestions. People who have been on the frontline share their insights. Hear the first-hand accounts of agencies that assist people who experience faith-based discrimination. You?ll learn what Christians can do to combat bias and prejudice in the workplace, schools, courts, and other areas. And how you can be prepared if you feel the pressure to be silenced for your faith.

            "Speechless . . . Silencing the Christians? airs on INSP cable network each Saturday night at 9:00 pm Eastern. INSP is available on cable systems nationwide (Check your local listings) and on satellite services Dish Network (Channel 259) and DIRECTV (Channel 364.)

            You can watch Speechless anytime on the Web at AFA.net. Click on the Speechless banner. 
           

           

           
            Sincerely, 



            Donald E. Wildmon,
            Founder and Chairman
            American Family Association   
     

      Please take a few minutes and invite your friends to AFA ActionAlert.  
        
      In keeping with our privacy policy, AFA may periodically contact you regarding issues of concern to the family. Rest assured that your e-mail address will be kept in the strictest confidence.  
      You are subscribed as heffling at whidbey.com. Unsubscribe | Update E-mail Address  
      If you are a Federal Civilian, Postal or Military Employee, please consider AFA (#12037) for your annual CFC participation.  
      American Family Association | P O Drawer 2440 | Tupelo, MS 38803 | 1-662-844-5036 
      Copyright ?2008 All Rights Reserved 
     
 
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From bl_b at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  2 13:55:08 2009
From: bl_b at yahoo.com (bl b)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 12:55:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.354.1259733373.10224.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <873419.32872.qm@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Thank you Grace.  Keep up the good work against the liberals.

LB

--- On Tue, 12/1/09, classof80-request at rvaalumni.org <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org> wrote:

> From: classof80-request at rvaalumni.org <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org>
> Subject: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 2
> To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
> Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 11:56 PM
> Send ClassOf80 mailing list
> submissions to
> ??? classof80 at rvaalumni.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> ??? http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
> to
> ??? classof80-request at rvaalumni.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> ??? classof80-owner at rvaalumni.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> specific
> than "Re: Contents of ClassOf80 digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
> ???1. Re: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> (Hefflingers)
> ???2. Re: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> (Mark Sharp)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 18:02:30 -0800
> From: "Hefflingers" <heffling at whidbey.com>
> To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> Message-ID:
> <19CDB4F88B7E441293B62E3BDA94F814 at Desktophp>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed;
> charset="iso-8859-1";
> ??? reply-type=original
> 
> Jon and Julie,
> 
> I agree w/ you, but "love does not rejoice in
> unrighteousness" , either. And 
> yes, Julie, Jesus did forgive, show compassion and go
> against the law ( of 
> bondage, not freedom; He came to give a new law-grace), but
> He also let the 
> Pharisees and others know clearly and decisively about
> their hypocrisy and 
> wrong hearts.? Yes, we should treat others as both of
> you have said, but we 
> also need to have standards of conduct, and we are not to
> go along with what 
> God clearly says is sin (Psalm 1); in this case,
> homosexuality, ( Romans 
> 1:26-28,32) cold blooded murder; Exodus 20:13. (that's what
> abortion is- a 
> human baby dies).? We can love the individual and
> treat them w/ kindness, as 
> God does us, but we can still take a stand against wrong
> behavior, as God 
> does when we sin.
> 
> Jesus is divisive. We can't be His and follow everything
> else. John 14:6 
> says, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes
> to the Father 
> except by me." People don't like that. (esp. these days).
> They want to have 
> Jesus and any other belief, god, too.... but to truly be
> His, we have to 
> give all the rest up. Isaiah says "I am God and there is no
> other."
> 
> Our laws have much to do with the siege Christians are
> under. The more 
> liberal and ungodly they become, the less freedom to
> express our faith as 
> Christians, there is. ( and more persecution). Our nation
> was founded on 
> Judeo- Christian values, and that is, I believe, what made
> it strong. ( God 
> blesses us when we follow after Him). The more we turn away
> from those 
> values, the more we as a nation turn away from God's
> blessing. We just have 
> to read the Old Testament to know how God deals with
> ungodly nations. So 
> it's not just about us as Christians, it's ultimately, I
> believe, has to do 
> with the fate of our nation. Jesus said, "He who is not
> with Me, is against 
> Me." That's what motivates me to take a stand against what
> He calls sin, 
> because I don't want to be in the position of being against
> Him by passively 
> letting it go on and turning my eyes the other way. This
> doesn't mean I'm 
> perfect; I'm not. I often need His forgiveness. But I?
> believe, He's called 
> us to try to live lives that please Him and don't just go
> along with 
> everything. Matt.5:14& 16 say we're to be lights on a
> hill that shine for 
> His glory.
> 
> Blessings,
> Grace
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org>
> To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 11:00 AM
> Subject: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> 
> 
> > Send ClassOf80 mailing list submissions to
> > classof80 at rvaalumni.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> visit
> > http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> 'help' to
> > classof80-request at rvaalumni.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > classof80-owner at rvaalumni.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
> more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of ClassOf80 digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >???1. Re: Manhattan Declaration - a line
> in the sand (JULIE LINDHOLM)
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:08:31 -0800 (PST)
> > From: JULIE LINDHOLM <lindholmsi at yahoo.com>
> > To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a
> line in the sand
> > Message-ID: <261522.90491.qm at web112006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Tory, Jon,? thank you for food for thought, - i think
> i'm stuffed.
> >
> > i hope?everybody had a warm and loving thanksgiving.
> >
> > i did read the declaration and the Gospels, and?I
> find?the line in the 
> > sand to be divisive.????
> >
> > Whether its against the rogue christians or churches
> or against the 
> > government, it's divisive.
> >
> > The church's, and?family's, and?soul's only?true
> refuge is compassion.?
> > And though some?Christians?feel indignant at the
> lawlessness of?it all, 
> > Christ wrote in the dirt in a gesture that was
> inclusive, compassionate, 
> > and at the expense of the law.?? He spoke continuously
> of forgiveness, 
> > dignity, radical sharing, and love.?
> >
> >
> > i agree that?the church, the family and the soul are
> under siege (as 
> > always) but i doubt that?US laws about gay rights,
> embryos or civil 
> > marriages?have?much to do with that.??
> >
> > We do have an ever?wilder?& crazier
> media/entertainment world to try to 
> > raise kids in...
> > i do not envy you guys!!??
> > on the other hand there's a lot of great?art out
> there, you just have to 
> > walk thru it with your kids, in constant
> communication, huh??
> >
> >
> > Peace? -? ?Julie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ?
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Tory Walker <tory at trwengineering.com>
> > To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> > Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 11:00:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a
> line in the sand
> >
> >
> > Jon,
> > ?
> > You have written an excelent ?rebuttal.?? I
> wholeheartedly agree with your 
> > assessment of the church, of our call to love
> unconditionally, and of our 
> > failure, in many ways, to do so.? If this declaration
> causes anyone to 
> > shift their focus away from our first love and that
> highest calling you 
> > have so well reminded us of, then I would say trash
> it.? As long as the 
> > world can justifiably be repulsed by a harsh and
> condemning church, we are 
> > failures.
> > ?
> > I would only say that perhaps you were viewing this
> declaration as some 
> > Christian leaders attempting to set a course for the
> church.? That is not 
> > the intent.? It is meant to be a wake up call to a
> church that has been 
> > moving away from eternal, non-negotiable truths to
> achieve unity at any 
> > cost.? All of us who are parents know what tough love
> is, and if we 
> > compromise in an attempt to show ?love?, it will not
> end up well for those 
> > we think we are loving.
> > ?
> > I will admit it is not perfect, but as I wrote to
> Nancy, I think it is 
> > remarkable that such a diverse group of Christian
> leaders could pull this 
> > together.
> > ?
> > Tory
> > ?
> > ?
> > ?
> > From:Jonathan Bainbridge [mailto:jonathan.bainbridge at acssa.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:23 AM
> > To: RVA class of '80
> > Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a
> line in the sand
> > ?
> > Tory,
> > ?
> > I looked it up and down, but I was mostly struck by
> how little there was 
> > to help me be a better example of Christ in my daily
> life. If we 
> > ?evangelical Christians? would spend more of our time
> exampling Christ and 
> > less in pointing our fingers at the world around us we
> would draw more 
> > into His following. Christ didn?t use a stick to drive
> people to God, He, 
> > by example, drew people to follow Him to God. If we
> spend our time 
> > pointing our fingers at others, telling them how
> terrible they are, we 
> > will never be able, again, to lead by example.
> > ?
> > Maybe if the declaration that was signed by these
> ?leaders? included 
> > something about love of our fellow men it would seem
> less like railing 
> > against the world we are called to love. Out of the 11
> times the 
> > ?declaration? mentions love, only once was that love
> directed outward at 
> > our fellow man, every other time the reference was
> Goo?s love or, 
> > selfishly, love directed inward. As long as the
> ?evangelical? among us 
> > beat our chests and whine about how bad we have it we
> will never draw unto 
> > Christ those that need His love.
> > ?
> > Here is my rebuttal ?Kansas City Declaration? ? an
> open arms invitation;
> > ?
> > 1.????? love your enemies,
> > 2.????? bless them that curse you,
> > 3.????? do good to them that hate you,
> > 4.????? and pray for them that despitefully use you
> and persecute you
> > ?
> > We, in ?the church? have forgotten that which should
> be our first love, 
> > what anyone in ?The Church? would know, that which we
> should strive for 
> > and fix our eyes on; to be an example not a detriment,
> a lure not a 
> > deterrent, a light and not a laser.
> > ?
> > ?36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the
> Law?" 37Jesus 
> > replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart
> and with all your 
> > soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and
> greatest commandment. 
> > 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as
> yourself.' 40All the 
> > Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
> > ?
> >
> _________________________________________________________
> > Jonathan Bainbridge
> > Avant Ministries / CrossWorld Shared Services
> > ITGuy at acssa.org |
> w 816.479.7051 | c 816.550.0971
> > ?
> > ?
> > From:Tory Walker [mailto:tory at trwengineering.com]
> > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:00 PM
> > To: RVA class of '80
> > Subject: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a line in
> the sand
> > ?
> > Without apology, I am asking you, my classmates, to
> join me and many 
> > others who have read and signed this most important
> and historic 
> > declaration defending life, marriage, and freedom, as
> given to us by God 
> > Himself.? Chuck Colson believes this is one of the
> most important 
> > documents produced by the American church.? I agree,
> and that is why I am 
> > sending this to you.? When you have signed it, spread
> the news far and 
> > wide.? "You are the light of the world. Acity that is
> set onahill cannot 
> > be hidden.? Matt. 5:14
> > ?
> > http://manhattandeclaration.org/
> > ?
> > Tory
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > HTML attachment scrubbed and removed
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ClassOf80 mailing list
> > ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> > http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> >
> >
> > End of ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> > **************************************** 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 20:55:59 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> Message-ID: <813387.38289.qm at web180115.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Grace (& all)
> 
> Forgive me for being provocative, but I really want to
> comment - and ask a question.? First, I think your comment
> about Jesus and the Pharisees is instructive.? Think about
> it. He spoke against the Pharisees quite a bit, but not
> really against the government at all.? The Pharisees were a
> part of the religious community who? were pretty separatist
> and judgmental of other? people (kind of a focus on the
> family of their time).? Jesus attacked them because of their
> distortion of worship of God, not for? their immorality.? In
> fact, he had a lot to say about them, part of the jewish
> tradition at that point, and little negative to say about
> the other faiths that were in the area.? Hmmm.
> 
> The question I? have is about where? you feel less free to
> express your faith.? I would really like to know how you
> experience that.? If you are referring to more people who
> exist who are critical of the way you express your faith, I
> can certainly see that.? But actual limits to your ability
> to express your faith.? I don't see it.
> 
> Peace and compassion everyone,
> 
> Mark
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com>
> wrote:
> 
> From: Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
> Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 8:02 PM
> 
> Jon and Julie,
> 
> I agree w/ you, but "love does not rejoice in
> unrighteousness" , either. And yes, Julie, Jesus did
> forgive, show compassion and go against the law ( of
> bondage, not freedom; He came to give a new law-grace), but
> He also let the Pharisees and others know clearly and
> decisively about their hypocrisy and wrong hearts.? Yes, we
> should treat others as both of you have said, but we also
> need to have standards of conduct, and we are not to go
> along with what God clearly says is sin (Psalm 1); in this
> case, homosexuality, ( Romans 1:26-28,32) cold blooded
> murder; Exodus 20:13. (that's what abortion is- a human baby
> dies).? We can love the individual and treat them w/
> kindness, as God does us, but we can still take a stand
> against wrong behavior, as God does when we sin.
> 
> Jesus is divisive. We can't be His and follow everything
> else. John 14:6 says, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
> No man comes to the Father except by me." People don't like
> that. (esp. these days). They want to have Jesus and any
> other belief, god, too.... but to truly be His, we have to
> give all the rest up. Isaiah says "I am God and there is no
> other."
> 
> Our laws have much to do with the siege Christians are
> under. The more liberal and ungodly they become, the less
> freedom to express our faith as Christians, there is. ( and
> more persecution). Our nation was founded on Judeo-
> Christian values, and that is, I believe, what made it
> strong. ( God blesses us when we follow after Him). The more
> we turn away from those values, the more we as a nation turn
> away from God's blessing. We just have to read the Old
> Testament to know how God deals with ungodly nations. So
> it's not just about us as Christians, it's ultimately, I
> believe, has to do with the fate of our nation. Jesus said,
> "He who is not with Me, is against Me." That's what
> motivates me to take a stand against what He calls sin,
> because I don't want to be in the position of being against
> Him by passively letting it go on and turning my eyes the
> other way. This doesn't mean I'm perfect; I'm not. I often
> need His forgiveness. But I? believe, He's called
>  us to try to live lives that please Him and don't just go
> along with everything. Matt.5:14& 16 say we're to be
> lights on a hill that shine for His glory.
> 
> Blessings,
> Grace
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org>
> To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 11:00 AM
> Subject: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> 
> 
> > Send ClassOf80 mailing list submissions to
> > classof80 at rvaalumni.org
> > 
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> visit
> > http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> 'help' to
> > classof80-request at rvaalumni.org
> > 
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > classof80-owner at rvaalumni.org
> > 
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
> more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of ClassOf80 digest..."
> > 
> > 
> > Today's Topics:
> > 
> >???1. Re: Manhattan Declaration - a line in the sand
> (JULIE LINDHOLM)
> > 
> > 
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:08:31 -0800 (PST)
> > From: JULIE LINDHOLM <lindholmsi at yahoo.com>
> > To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a
> line in the sand
> > Message-ID: <261522.90491.qm at web112006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > 
> > Tory, Jon,? thank you for food for thought, - i think
> i'm stuffed.
> > 
> > i hope?everybody had a warm and loving thanksgiving.
> > 
> > i did read the declaration and the Gospels, and?I
> find?the line in the sand to be divisive.????
> > 
> > Whether its against the rogue christians or churches
> or against the government, it's divisive.
> > 
> > The church's, and?family's, and?soul's only?true
> refuge is compassion.?
> > And though some?Christians?feel indignant at the
> lawlessness of?it all, Christ wrote in the dirt in a gesture
> that was inclusive, compassionate, and at the expense of the
> law.?? He spoke continuously of forgiveness, dignity,
> radical sharing, and love.?
> > 
> > 
> > i agree that?the church, the family and the soul are
> under siege (as always) but i doubt that?US laws about gay
> rights, embryos or civil marriages?have?much to do with
> that.??
> > 
> > We do have an ever?wilder?& crazier
> media/entertainment world to try to raise kids in...
> > i do not envy you guys!!??
> > on the other hand there's a lot of great?art out
> there, you just have to walk thru it with your kids, in
> constant communication, huh??
> > 
> > 
> > Peace? -? ?Julie
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Tory Walker <tory at trwengineering.com>
> > To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> > Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 11:00:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a
> line in the sand
> > 
> > 
> > Jon,
> > ?
> > You have written an excelent ?rebuttal.?? I
> wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the church, of
> our call to love unconditionally, and of our failure, in
> many ways, to do so.? If this declaration causes anyone to
> shift their focus away from our first love and that highest
> calling you have so well reminded us of, then I would say
> trash it.? As long as the world can justifiably be repulsed
> by a harsh and condemning church, we are failures.
> > ?
> > I would only say that perhaps you were viewing this
> declaration as some Christian leaders attempting to set a
> course for the church.? That is not the intent.? It is meant
> to be a wake up call to a church that has been moving away
> from eternal, non-negotiable truths to achieve unity at any
> cost.? All of us who are parents know what tough love is,
> and if we compromise in an attempt to show ?love?, it will
> not end up well for those we think we are loving.
> > ?
> > I will admit it is not perfect, but as I wrote to
> Nancy, I think it is remarkable that such a diverse group of
> Christian leaders could pull this together.
> > ?
> > Tory
> > ?
> > ?
> > ?
> > From:Jonathan Bainbridge [mailto:jonathan.bainbridge at acssa.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:23 AM
> > To: RVA class of '80
> > Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a
> line in the sand
> > ?
> > Tory,
> > ?
> > I looked it up and down, but I was mostly struck by
> how little there was to help me be a better example of
> Christ in my daily life. If we ?evangelical Christians?
> would spend more of our time exampling Christ and less in
> pointing our fingers at the world around us we would draw
> more into His following. Christ didn?t use a stick to drive
> people to God, He, by example, drew people to follow Him to
> God. If we spend our time pointing our fingers at others,
> telling them how terrible they are, we will never be able,
> again, to lead by example.
> > ?
> > Maybe if the declaration that was signed by these
> ?leaders? included something about love of our fellow men it
> would seem less like railing against the world we are called
> to love. Out of the 11 times the ?declaration? mentions
> love, only once was that love directed outward at our fellow
> man, every other time the reference was Goo?s love or,
> selfishly, love directed inward. As long as the
> ?evangelical? among us beat our chests and whine about how
> bad we have it we will never draw unto Christ those that
> need His love.
> > ?
> > Here is my rebuttal ?Kansas City Declaration? ? an
> open arms invitation;
> > ?
> > 1.????? love your enemies,
> > 2.????? bless them that curse you,
> > 3.????? do good to them that hate you,
> > 4.????? and pray for them that despitefully use you
> and persecute you
> > ?
> > We, in ?the church? have forgotten that which should
> be our first love, what anyone in ?The Church? would know,
> that which we should strive for and fix our eyes on; to be
> an example not a detriment, a lure not a deterrent, a light
> and not a laser.
> > ?
> > ?36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the
> Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all
> your heart and with all your soul and with all your
> mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And
> the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
> 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
> commandments."
> > ?
> >
> _________________________________________________________
> > Jonathan Bainbridge
> > Avant Ministries / CrossWorld Shared Services
> > ITGuy at acssa.org |
> w 816.479.7051 | c 816.550.0971
> > ?
> > ?
> > From:Tory Walker [mailto:tory at trwengineering.com]
> > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 5:00 PM
> > To: RVA class of '80
> > Subject: [ClassOf80] Manhattan Declaration - a line in
> the sand
> > ?
> > Without apology, I am asking you, my classmates, to
> join me and many others who have read and signed this most
> important and historic declaration defending life, marriage,
> and freedom, as given to us by God Himself.? Chuck Colson
> believes this is one of the most important documents
> produced by the American church.? I agree, and that is why I
> am sending this to you.? When you have signed it, spread the
> news far and wide.? "You are the light of the world. Acity
> that is set onahill cannot be hidden.? Matt. 5:14
> > ?
> > http://manhattandeclaration.org/
> > ?
> > Tory
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > HTML attachment scrubbed and removed
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > ClassOf80 mailing list
> > ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> > http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> > 
> > 
> > End of ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 1
> > **************************************** 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> -------------- next part --------------
> HTML attachment scrubbed and removed
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> 
> 
> End of ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 2
> ****************************************
> 


      


From jgarmes at msn.com  Wed Dec  2 15:03:44 2009
From: jgarmes at msn.com (John & Gini Armes)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 15:03:44 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] Colleges?
In-Reply-To: <873419.32872.qm@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <873419.32872.qm@web112508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP654C52AD8F0EE010D7D083A0950@phx.gbl>

Hello class mates!
   So, I'm asking for advice...those of you who have college students  
or beyond...Eileen, our oldest is 1/2 way through her junior year in  
high school and we've started "looking around".  Any specific or  
general help would be most appreciated!!  In return I could give  
advice on "having a baby after 40" !!!!   Asante sana!  Gini



From heffling at whidbey.com  Wed Dec  2 20:17:44 2009
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 19:17:44 -0800
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fw: Manhattan Declaration - What You Can Do Next for
	those of you who are wondering what it's purpose is
Message-ID: <09D7A7C3379E4CA3A459396779C52D53@Desktophp>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Manhattan Declaration 
To: heffling at whidbey.com 
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 4:52 PM
Subject: Manhattan Declaration - What You Can Do Next


  
            If you're having trouble viewing this email, you may see it online.  
     


                  To all signers of the Manhattan Declaration:

                  Thank you for signing. We are now over 200,000 strong-and counting, for which we give thanks to God.

                  We have received thousands of e-mails asking what's next - a good question. The goal of those of us who drafted and signed the document is not just to get a lot of names on a manifesto, gratifying though that is. We are seeking to build a movement - hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of Catholic, Evangelical, and Eastern Orthodox Christians who will stand together alongside other men and women of goodwill in defense of foundational principles of justice and the common good. These are people who could expose the lie which so many in our culture have embraced about self being the center of life; and then winsomely present, in the words of St. Paul, "a more excellent way."

                  We are looking for people who will work in every possible arena to advance the sanctity of life, rebuild and revitalize the marriage culture, and protect religious liberty.

                  So what's next for you? Let us offer some specific suggestions. More will undoubtedly follow in the weeks ahead.


                    1.. Pray. We can do nothing apart from God. So lay this before the Lord every chance you have, and ask your friends and prayer chains to do the same thing.


                    2.. Study and learn about these issues. We see the Manhattan Declaration as a great teaching and reference source. Share it with others. Only after you have tried to teach it to someone else will you have really learned it. And go deeper in your own study. There are many organizations that offer excellent resources in support of these foundational truths. If you can't find resources, the Worldview Resource Directory we've assembled might be helpful.


                    3.. Come back to www.manhattandeclaration.org if you want help in answering questions others pose to you. We've posted a FAQ (frequently asked questions) tab on the home page, but most people signed the statement before this was added. So revisit www.manhattandeclaration.org - and watch for other resources we will be posting.


                    4.. Invite all of the friends on your e-mail lists to go to www.manhattandeclaration.org, read the Declaration (that's most important) and sign it. 


                    5.. Talk to your pastor or small group leader in church. We have heard from a number of pastors who are already referring to this document in their sermons and using it in their teaching. We've also heard from bishops and other church leaders who are planning ecumenical gatherings in their areas of responsibility. Some are talking about campaigns to equip the faithful. Other pastors are asking their congregations to sign the document, and become informed. Go to your pastor; urge him to do this. You can really help in this area. Suggest it, and then volunteer to be a part of it. Step forward as a leader.


                    6.. If you belong to a civic group like Kiwanis or Rotary, and you have regular meetings, that's a great forum in which to share information about the Manhattan Declaration. Explain to people what you've signed and why you've signed it. A lot of people are asking about this statement, its meaning and purpose. Educate them.


                    7.. Letters to the Editor can be a very effective way to spread information about important issues. According to some sources, more people read the Letters to the Editor columns than the editorials. 


                    8.. Watch the issues being debated in the public arena, particularly as the health reform bill is moving through Congress. As a citizen you have a duty to let your representatives know what you think about the issues, particularly on profoundly important moral questions like those being raised now.


                    9.. Get on Facebook or any other chat rooms or blogs that you have access to. Social networking, as we are learning, can have a powerful impact.


                    10.. Finally, talk to your neighbors. Robert Naisbitt wrote that fads begin from the top down, movements from the bottom up. We are convinced that societies are changed over the backyard fence, standing around the barbeque grill, and sitting in the barber shop or hair salon. Learn to be an advocate in any environment. 
                  In conclusion, in asking you to sign we were not just asking you to raise your hand, but to raise your voice. Great changes in society have often come about when Christian people unite in this way - think of the Wesley awakening, the Celtic revival, or movements for social justice and civil rights in our own country. We believe God is looking for good men and women who will pledge (as you have done in signing the Manhattan Declaration), never to compromise the gospel, and to become well-informed, effective advocates true and godly principles.

                  This is a message of hope for every area of human life and endeavor, and a call to discipleship for every believer. 

                  God bless you.

                  Dr. Robert George
                  Dr. Timothy George
                  Chuck Colson

                 
           
     
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Thu Dec  3 00:31:55 2009
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:31:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fw: "Speechless...Silencing the Christians" airs at
	9:00 pm Eastern tonight on INSP
In-Reply-To: <E669942C8E5E4A9B93FAFC2C4A422A62@Desktophp>
Message-ID: <313513.33024.qm@web180112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Thanks for your response Grace.? I will grant you that the issue of sharing your faith in health care and other settings is tricky.? Though I'm not sure whether you are talking about saying you are a Christian or "witnessing" to the people you are serving.? What I would say is what you are experiencing there is not oppression of Christians, but an application of the separation of church and state, which you may or may not agree with.? I doubt that Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, or members of any other faith or religious belief system are any more welcome to share their faith than you are.? 

Perhaps we should have a discussion about the separation of church and state here.? Do you want that to go away.? If so, then there has to be a decision about whether you want to have religious freedom in public institutions with anyone being able to express their faith however they want, or whether you want to limit that to one or certain faiths.? Religious freedom would require the first condition.? 

Again, thanks for the response.

Mark

--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com> wrote:

From: Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com>
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fw: "Speechless...Silencing the Christians" airs at 9:00 pm Eastern tonight on INSP
To: classof80 at rva.org
Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 12:25 AM

?
AFA ActionAlert
 
 

Hi Mark, Julie, all~
?
I'm not able to share my faith w/ my clients as a 
healthcare worker. I'm not sure if it's actually illegal, but it's definitely 
taught that I'm not to share my beliefs.I can potentially loose my job if a 
client were to tell my bosses that I did so. The conscience clause that for 
years has allowed?health care workers to not participate in procedures they 
are?adverse to based on their beliefs is under fire and could be reversed 
meaning, that?if?told to take part in an abortion or embryonic stem 
cell procedure, I cannot refuse without threat of losing my job.
?
?This Speechless Series( web address 
below)?has many accounts of Christians in USA? in the last few years, 
not able to say the name of God in a graduation address, celebrate Jesus birth 
in school and so forth. There are several 1/2 hr. segments of this and it's 
reality today in USA. Also, our military chaplins have been reprimanded for 
praying in Jesus name! It's all around us. The media just doesn't broadcast it 
much. And you must know that the ACLU is doing all it can to get any mention of 
Jesus, God, and anything to do w/ them out of our nation. I believe it's now law 
( or at least?folks are trying to get it so)?that if a pastor preaches 
against homosexuality??( which the Bible is clearly against - Sodom 
and Gomorrah's destruction another example) they can be arrested if someone 
complains to authorities. I strongly encourage you to listen to this series. 

?
American Center for Law and Justice and another- 
Rutherford Foundation, I think, are continually fighting cases for Christians 
who've faced legal battles for expressing their faith. It's freedom of speech 
for those who are "politically correct", but it's rapidly becoming no freedom of 
speech to rebutt "politically correct" views.
?
Blessings,
Grace
?
?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: American Family 
Association 
To: heffling at whidbey.com 
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:08 AM
Subject: "Speechless...Silencing the Christians" airs at 9:00 pm 
Eastern tonight on INSP



  
  
    
      
        
        
           
          
            
              
              
                
                  
                    
                    
                       
            
            
              
              
                
                  Donald E. 
                  Wildmon
Founder and
Chairman 
            
  
     

  
  
    
    

      
        
        
          
            Please help us get this 
            information into the hands of as many people as possible by 
            forwarding it to your entire e-mail list of family and friends. 
            
            "Speechless...Silencing 
            the Christians" airs at 9:00 pm Eastern tonight on INSP. Also 
            available on AFA.net. 
            Tonight's episode is 
            "Defending the Faithful" 
            
            Dear Grace, 
            Facing rising persecution and discrimination, many Christians 
            feel hopeless, uncertain what to do. This episode of ?Speechless . . 
            . Silencing the Christians? is filled with practical advice and 
            realistic suggestions. People who have been on the frontline share 
            their insights. Hear the first-hand accounts of agencies that assist 
            people who experience faith-based discrimination. You?ll learn what 
            Christians can do to combat bias and prejudice in the workplace, 
            schools, courts, and other areas. And how you can be prepared if you 
            feel the pressure to be silenced for your faith.
            "Speechless . . . Silencing the Christians? airs on INSP cable 
            network each Saturday night at 9:00 pm Eastern. INSP is available on 
            cable systems nationwide (Check your local listings) and on 
            satellite services Dish Network (Channel 259) and DIRECTV (Channel 
            364.)
            You can watch Speechless anytime on the Web at AFA.net. Click on the Speechless banner. 
        
          

        
          

      
        
        
          Sincerely, 



Donald 
            E. Wildmon,
Founder and Chairman
American Family Association 
            
          



  
  
    Please take 
      a few minutes and invite your friends to AFA ActionAlert. 
  

  
  
     
  
    In keeping 
      with our privacy policy, AFA may periodically contact you 
      regarding issues of concern to the family. Rest assured that your e-mail 
      address will be kept in the strictest confidence. 
  
    You are subscribed as 
      heffling at whidbey.com. Unsubscribe | Update E-mail Address 
  
    If you are 
      a Federal Civilian, Postal or Military Employee, please consider AFA 
      (#12037) for your annual CFC participation. 

  
  
    American Family Association | P O Drawer 2440 | Tupelo, 
      MS 38803 | 1-662-844-5036 
Copyright ?2008 All Rights Reserved 
      
 
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
ClassOf80 mailing list
ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  3 07:27:28 2009
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen FH)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 08:27:28 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] Sheri
Message-ID: <SNT101-W26E8CAD1CD4142C0CFE12888940@phx.gbl>


Hey Sheri I got two of the boxes you sent and thank you so much. The wipes went quick when the chaplain put them in the goodie area- the cookies-crackers-coffee-dried goodies...Medicines-tums...mouthwash-candy. thanks alot..steve  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.aspx?ocid=PID23879::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-ww:WM_IMHM_4:092009
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From heffling at whidbey.com  Thu Dec  3 13:58:06 2009
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:58:06 -0800
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5
References: <mailman.7.1259866802.8895.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <50FF8DEC00744C919185F056C16A2193@Desktophp>

Mark,

You're right on the first part; I can't witness, nor can others of other 
faiths, share their faith. As to the separation of church and state, I truly 
don't have time to get into that right now ( son getting married next 
weekend, working full-time this week) but I welcome others to join us in the 
discussion and I can tell you that I know of at least one instance in CA 
where the school backed some kind of observance of, or teaching of Islam, 
but pretty sure Christians aren't allowed to pray or celebrate our meaning 
of Christmas. I think that was in the Speechless series. Without deep 
thought, I would support everyone being able to practice their faith 
freely - so nativity scenes as well as Hanukah and Kwanza symbols allowed. 
Creation as well as evolution taught. That's not what I'm seeing happening 
though. More often, everyone, but Christians are free to acknowledge their 
beliefs. Of course, prayer and other Christian observances/beliefs aren't 
knocked everywhere and in every circumstance, but the trend in government, 
is too eliminate it. Media on the other hand, ( movies/DVD's) surprisingly 
has more instances of prayer and such than I remember years ago, but then I 
didn't watch many movies years ago, either. I'm grateful for that, and I 
think it's because deep down people are searching for someone bigger than 
themselves to give them the peace and security they can't find in 
themselves, and because like Romans 1 says; God has made Himself known 
through creation to all people.

Thanks for challenging us.

Blessings,
Grace
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org>
To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5


> Send ClassOf80 mailing list submissions to
> classof80 at rvaalumni.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> classof80-request at rvaalumni.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> classof80-owner at rvaalumni.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ClassOf80 digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Fw: "Speechless...Silencing the Christians" airs at 9:00
>      pm Eastern tonight on INSP (Mark Sharp)
>   2. Sheri (Stephen FH)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:31:55 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Fw: "Speechless...Silencing the Christians"
> airs at 9:00 pm Eastern tonight on INSP
> Message-ID: <313513.33024.qm at web180112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thanks for your response Grace.? I will grant you that the issue of 
> sharing your faith in health care and other settings is tricky.? Though 
> I'm not sure whether you are talking about saying you are a Christian or 
> "witnessing" to the people you are serving.? What I would say is what you 
> are experiencing there is not oppression of Christians, but an application 
> of the separation of church and state, which you may or may not agree 
> with.? I doubt that Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, or members of any other 
> faith or religious belief system are any more welcome to share their faith 
> than you are.?
>
> Perhaps we should have a discussion about the separation of church and 
> state here.? Do you want that to go away.? If so, then there has to be a 
> decision about whether you want to have religious freedom in public 
> institutions with anyone being able to express their faith however they 
> want, or whether you want to limit that to one or certain faiths.? 
> Religious freedom would require the first condition.?
>
> Again, thanks for the response.
>
> Mark
>
> --- On Wed, 12/2/09, Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com> wrote:
>
> From: Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com>
> Subject: [ClassOf80] Fw: "Speechless...Silencing the Christians" airs at 
> 9:00 pm Eastern tonight on INSP
> To: classof80 at rva.org
> Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 12:25 AM
>
> ?
> AFA ActionAlert
>
>
>
> Hi Mark, Julie, all~
> ?
> I'm not able to share my faith w/ my clients as a
> healthcare worker. I'm not sure if it's actually illegal, but it's 
> definitely
> taught that I'm not to share my beliefs.I can potentially loose my job if 
> a
> client were to tell my bosses that I did so. The conscience clause that 
> for
> years has allowed?health care workers to not participate in procedures 
> they
> are?adverse to based on their beliefs is under fire and could be reversed
> meaning, that?if?told to take part in an abortion or embryonic stem
> cell procedure, I cannot refuse without threat of losing my job.
> ?
> ?This Speechless Series( web address
> below)?has many accounts of Christians in USA? in the last few years,
> not able to say the name of God in a graduation address, celebrate Jesus 
> birth
> in school and so forth. There are several 1/2 hr. segments of this and 
> it's
> reality today in USA. Also, our military chaplins have been reprimanded 
> for
> praying in Jesus name! It's all around us. The media just doesn't 
> broadcast it
> much. And you must know that the ACLU is doing all it can to get any 
> mention of
> Jesus, God, and anything to do w/ them out of our nation. I believe it's 
> now law
> ( or at least?folks are trying to get it so)?that if a pastor preaches
> against homosexuality??( which the Bible is clearly against - Sodom
> and Gomorrah's destruction another example) they can be arrested if 
> someone
> complains to authorities. I strongly encourage you to listen to this 
> series.
>
> ?
> American Center for Law and Justice and another-
> Rutherford Foundation, I think, are continually fighting cases for 
> Christians
> who've faced legal battles for expressing their faith. It's freedom of 
> speech
> for those who are "politically correct", but it's rapidly becoming no 
> freedom of
> speech to rebutt "politically correct" views.
> ?
> Blessings,
> Grace
> ?
> ?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: American Family
> Association
> To: heffling at whidbey.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:08 AM
> Subject: "Speechless...Silencing the Christians" airs at 9:00 pm
> Eastern tonight on INSP
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                  Donald E.
>                  Wildmon
> Founder and
> Chairman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>            Please help us get this
>            information into the hands of as many people as possible by
>            forwarding it to your entire e-mail list of family and friends.
>
>            "Speechless...Silencing
>            the Christians" airs at 9:00 pm Eastern tonight on INSP. Also
>            available on AFA.net.
>            Tonight's episode is
>            "Defending the Faithful"
>
>            Dear Grace,
>            Facing rising persecution and discrimination, many Christians
>            feel hopeless, uncertain what to do. This episode of 
> ?Speechless . .
>            . Silencing the Christians? is filled with practical advice and
>            realistic suggestions. People who have been on the frontline 
> share
>            their insights. Hear the first-hand accounts of agencies that 
> assist
>            people who experience faith-based discrimination. You?ll learn 
> what
>            Christians can do to combat bias and prejudice in the 
> workplace,
>            schools, courts, and other areas. And how you can be prepared 
> if you
>            feel the pressure to be silenced for your faith.
>            "Speechless . . . Silencing the Christians? airs on INSP cable
>            network each Saturday night at 9:00 pm Eastern. INSP is 
> available on
>            cable systems nationwide (Check your local listings) and on
>            satellite services Dish Network (Channel 259) and DIRECTV 
> (Channel
>            364.)
>            You can watch Speechless anytime on the Web at AFA.net. Click 
> on the Speechless banner.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>          Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Donald
>            E. Wildmon,
> Founder and Chairman
> American Family Association
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    Please take
>      a few minutes and invite your friends to AFA ActionAlert.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    In keeping
>      with our privacy policy, AFA may periodically contact you
>      regarding issues of concern to the family. Rest assured that your 
> e-mail
>      address will be kept in the strictest confidence.
>
>    You are subscribed as
>      heffling at whidbey.com. Unsubscribe | Update E-mail Address
>
>    If you are
>      a Federal Civilian, Postal or Military Employee, please consider AFA
>      (#12037) for your annual CFC participation.
>
>
>
>    American Family Association | P O Drawer 2440 | Tupelo,
>      MS 38803 | 1-662-844-5036
> Copyright ?2008 All Rights Reserved
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> -------------- next part --------------
> HTML attachment scrubbed and removed
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 08:27:28 -0600
> From: Stephen FH <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com>
> To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Subject: [ClassOf80] Sheri
> Message-ID: <SNT101-W26E8CAD1CD4142C0CFE12888940 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Hey Sheri I got two of the boxes you sent and thank you so much. The wipes 
> went quick when the chaplain put them in the goodie area- the 
> cookies-crackers-coffee-dried goodies...Medicines-tums...mouthwash-candy. 
> thanks alot..steve
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.aspx?ocid=PID23879::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-ww:WM_IMHM_4:092009
> -------------- next part --------------
> HTML attachment scrubbed and removed
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
>
> End of ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5
> **************************************** 



From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  3 15:26:08 2009
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 16:26:08 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <50FF8DEC00744C919185F056C16A2193@Desktophp>
References: <mailman.7.1259866802.8895.classof80@rvaalumni.org>,
	<50FF8DEC00744C919185F056C16A2193@Desktophp>
Message-ID: <SNT125-W2A2755F6BC78509ABDD49A7940@phx.gbl>


I agree that it's a super busy time for me and I don't time this month to enter a long debate but I wanted to second what Grace has experienced and it puzzles me how we came to this place.  My son entered public school this year and I've been amazed.  Not only can you not discuss the meaning of Christmas, but you can't even use the word.  Or Hannukah.  It's Holiday.  Our school has a fairly strict clothing/uniform code that allows no religious jewelry.  No crosses, stars of David, etc.  But the exceptions are made for Muslim students to wear their clothing and I can't remember right now the other religion that requires boys to grow their hair long, keep it in a bun with a covering over it.  They have 2 weeks dedicated to studying world religions but not Christianity.  Prayer on campus is definitley a no-no and no religious based clubs can meet on campus.    What I don't understand is if there is to be no religion on campus why is it that those restrictions only apply to Christians and Jews?  And who gave them the power to make these decisions?  I would think it's the tax-payers paying for the schools.  Let the taxpayers vote on it.  Dan and Janice... you guys will have to help the folks in Florida push their chads on through!  :)

 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail gives you a free,exclusive  gift.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.aspx?ocid=PID23879::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-ww:WM_IMHM_7:092009
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From jgarmes at msn.com  Thu Dec  3 18:34:20 2009
From: jgarmes at msn.com (John & Gini Armes)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:34:20 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <SNT125-W2A2755F6BC78509ABDD49A7940@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.7.1259866802.8895.classof80@rvaalumni.org>,
	<50FF8DEC00744C919185F056C16A2193@Desktophp>
	<SNT125-W2A2755F6BC78509ABDD49A7940@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP3549F1CFCFB971B1C24E99A0930@phx.gbl>

Mel and others,
   YES, Heidi is in 5th grade and she asked her teacher innocently  
"Will we still have the Christmas party?" and the teacher "got in her  
face" and let her know "we don't say that word"!!!!  Yes, this is a  
public school!  GIni    Anybody going to write about colleges???



From nancymaillefer at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  3 18:14:19 2009
From: nancymaillefer at yahoo.com (Nancy Maillefer)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:14:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <SNT125-W2A2755F6BC78509ABDD49A7940@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.7.1259866802.8895.classof80@rvaalumni.org>,
	<50FF8DEC00744C919185F056C16A2193@Desktophp>
	<SNT125-W2A2755F6BC78509ABDD49A7940@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <776599.4009.qm@web52201.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Well then, probably about the only good thing about Kentucky is that you can do anything you want here!!? :)?? My sister's kids have a Christmas concert from school choirs on Monday. Other years, they have sung every Christmas song in the book. When I went to Disneyland last Christmas, at the whale show, we had a 1/2 hr. as the public waited, of singing Christmas songs together. It was so cool and really like church. A number of the songs were also Christian Christmas songs so there is still hope for America.... Everyone sang and those who didn't, looked like the foreigners who wouldn't know most of our songs. Go live in Europe for awhile and you'll see America is light years away from being nonChristian still!!!? I know - it's falling apart rapidly but still?is nothing like Europe. I had a teen ask me once what the difference was between?the crucifixion and the ressurection - that's even just a?vocab. question but he spoke good English - just had
 never heard a thing Biblically!!!
?? Nancy Maillefer 




________________________________
From: Melanie Phifer <mphifer63 at hotmail.com>
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 5:26:08 PM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5

I agree that it's a super busy time for me and I don't time this month to enter a long debate but I wanted to second what Grace has experienced and it puzzles me how we came to this place.? My son entered public school this year and I've been amazed.? Not only can you not discuss the meaning of Christmas, but you can't even use the word.? Or Hannukah.? It's Holiday.? Our school has a fairly strict clothing/uniform code that allows no religious jewelry.? No crosses, stars of David, etc.? But the exceptions are made for Muslim students to wear their clothing and I can't remember right now the other religion that requires boys to grow their hair long, keep it in a bun with a covering over it.? They have 2 weeks dedicated to studying world religions but not Christianity.? Prayer on campus is definitley a no-no and no religious based clubs can meet on campus.??? What I don't understand is if there is to be no religion on campus why is it that
 those restrictions only?apply to?Christians and Jews???And who gave them the power to make these decisions?? I would think it's the tax-payers paying for the schools.? Let the taxpayers vote on it.? Dan and Janice... you guys will have to help the folks in Florida push their chads on through!? :)
?

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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Thu Dec  3 21:02:34 2009
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:02:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ClassOf80] stuff
Message-ID: <60710.66838.qm@web180106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Grace and others who talk about differential treatment of Christians.? I have to say I am really sorry to hear that.? I certainly don't have that experience here.? Christmas is, I believe, an OK thing to say in schools and there is all sorts of Christmas imagery around, both secular and religious.? A neighborhood in my town goes a little insane with the Christmas lights thing, and they are most definitely Christmas - not holiday.? Of course they are mostly secular, with one yard having santa fly in on a helicopter, but there are a fair share of manger scenes as well.

I would expect that there is a lot more repression of Christian expression in the public sector than of other religions simply because there are a lot more Christians around in this country than there are any other religion.? I would agree Grace, that lots of people have a hunger for something and are looking for something spiritual.? I would also say that the vast majority of people I run into identify themselves as Christian, even if they don't know the simplest Christian theological principles.? 

I find some of the ideas non Christians have about Christmas to be interesting as well.? A lot of my Jewish friends learned that the Christmas tree is a Christian symbol - a symbol of the cross.? As far as I know the Christmas tree and perhaps even the tradition of putting presents under it were borrowed from some winter pagan festival.? 

Interestingly enough, I have a client who is a pagan and who feels oppressed from his largely conservative Christian (Catholic) family.? What has been interesting is that his ability to let go of feeling persecuted allowed him to get in touch with the fact that the primary thing that his family feels toward him is love, with a great improvement in those relationships.? 

Happy Holidays all.? It is way to busy of a time to be having these conversations, but I just can't keep myself out of them.

Mark

P.S.? Sorry Gini & John.? I don' t have any personal experience with the college thing for kids.? Good luck with that.? I do know that I have a friend whose business does college planning stuff for families (getting the finances taken care of) and he would say that you are really at the last possible moment to try to get as much in place as possible to help lighten that load.? Good luck.? 
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From fortworthdan at juno.com  Fri Dec  4 17:10:00 2009
From: fortworthdan at juno.com (fortworthdan at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 00:10:00 GMT
Subject: [ClassOf80] Colleges?
Message-ID: <20091204.181000.23843.0@webmail20.dca.untd.com>

Hi John and Gini,
This is Dan's Wife Christy.  Our daughter Laura is a freshman at the University of Texas at Austin. She had her mind made up before she even started looking and didn't give us any choice on which college to go to.  Tuition and room and board run about $22,000 a year.  Basically, I would just look at what is in state to begin with.  Tuition is always cheaper that way.  We tried to get her to go to the local Community College for the first two years and get her basics, but she didn't like that idea.  She is taking classes there during the summer though.  She didn't want to waste the expensive tuition on basic courses.  Of course that should help her graduate early.  She is living in an all girl freshman dorm on campus, so that helps with a parents anxiety about dorm life.  All the girls in the dorm seem to be really dedicated to their studying.  There is lots of help for their courses available also.  I don't think I've been much help but I thought I would throw my two cents worth in.

Christy Gibbon

____________________________________________________________
Nutrition
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Fri Dec  4 19:14:29 2009
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen FH)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 20:14:29 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1259953214.32473.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.7.1259953214.32473.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <SNT101-W196455CBC7D936DB54FF8C88920@phx.gbl>


 Mark: Not to sure of what your not seeing in the world but Christians are being treated differently...Then tell me why Christmas has been cheanged to Happy Holiday- Christmas tree is a holiday tree... If they don't believe why in the world do they celebrate a day like that.And if I am right Christmas came from a European Pagen celebration.

 

Take care and hope ya'll CHRISTmas season is going well....steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 
 		 	   		  
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From randanallen at juno.com  Sat Dec  5 09:13:36 2009
From: randanallen at juno.com (randanallen at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 10:13:36 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 5
Message-ID: <20091205.101337.2260.0.randanallen@juno.com>

Ginni,

Has your daughter taken the SAT?  The company that does the SAT is called
College Board.  They have a really good website that a prospective
student should explore. They have a college search tool that you can
customize.
We have three daughters. The oldest graduated from Dallas Baptist U. in
Dallas, TX.  She liked it OK and it wasn't unbelieveably expensive. She
said she felt it was too "cookie cutter" for her and would have preferred
a more diverse culture. She had small classes so they got  to know the
profs. Biggest disappointment was that the school didn't keep up with the
latest technology trends which was bad for her print graphics major.
Our second daughter is in nursing school at Hardin-Simmons U. in Abilene,
TX.  She wanted to go to a bigger school but chose to go there to play
soccer and because she could get to know people easier. She is not in
soccer anymore but is enjoying nursing school. Pretty expensive but she
has received a lot of scholarships for academics.
Our third daughter is a senior in high school.  She wants to go to
Belmont U. in Nashville to study Art Education.  She wants to eventually
teach overseas. She chose it because the program is strong and it is a
small school w/ the benefits of a large city. She will also get quite a
bit of academic scholarship money. As you can see, they take after their
mom!
My advice is to do the college search on line and try to find colleges
that have a strong program in what she is interested in.  We have told
our kids that they should go to whatever college they feel God leading
them to no matter what the cost.  We can always find some way to
eventually pay for it. Following the will of God always pays for itself
in some way.
If you have any more questions, feel free to email.

Randy and Dana.
____________________________________________________________
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From tory at trwengineering.com  Mon Dec 14 11:34:23 2009
From: tory at trwengineering.com (Tory Walker)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 12:34:23 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] The Grace and Truth Paradox
Message-ID: <BD5D046C774E1548859199A99C2738371609FB5C95@34093-MBX-C03.mex07a.mlsrvr.com>

The recent discussion that grew out of the Manhattan Declaration sent me on a prolonged thought process of how to balance truth with grace (or compassion).  As I thought about it, John 1:14 came to mind: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."  How fitting for this time of year when we celebrate the God who created the universe veiling His transcendent nature to step into time as a frail baby, coming full of both grace and truth.

I also came across a little book I read several years ago that I had forgotten about; it is called, "The Grace and Truth Paradox - Responding with Christlike Balance" by Randy Alcorn.  I reread it this weekend (it takes about an hour to read) and was struck with how perfectly Jesus embodied both grace and truth.  He is the lion and the lamb.

I have ordered a bunch to give away and would like to send a copy as a Christmas gift to whoever would like one.

Just let me know and give me an address.

Merry Christmas!

Tory
tory at trwengineering.com<mailto:tory at trwengineering.com>






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From energynorm at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 14 21:45:43 2009
From: energynorm at yahoo.com (Stormin' Norman)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 20:45:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ClassOf80] The Grace and Truth Paradox
In-Reply-To: <BD5D046C774E1548859199A99C2738371609FB5C95@34093-MBX-C03.mex07a.mlsrvr.com>
Message-ID: <553564.87447.qm@web112417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

?
Tory,
Great insight.? i would have needed the concordance to reference?John 1:14 as quoting the combination of?grace and truth.? My only correction is that you meant "lamb and the lion" and not "lion and the lamb".

Please send the book (or Amazon link) to accompany the Manhattan Declaration 2009.? This is even better than last years Manhattan Declaration 2008 on Climate Change.
?
BTW on the right to life issue, we have a high number of residents in GeorgeTown lining up to adopt kids from China, while many kids in the US are not adopted.? But that does not negate that when any mother does not want a child she and perhaps others have made imperfect decisions.? Obviously, no woman would take abortion lightly, so let us fix society and raise our children morally, before it comes to such a decision.?
?
Storm'in
15021 Purslane Meadows
Austin, TX 78728

--- On Mon, 12/14/09, Tory Walker <tory at trwengineering.com> wrote:


From: Tory Walker <tory at trwengineering.com>
Subject: [ClassOf80] The Grace and Truth Paradox
To: "RVA class of '80" <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 12:34 PM








The recent discussion that grew out of the Manhattan Declaration sent me on a prolonged thought process of how to balance truth with grace (or compassion).? As I thought about it, John 1:14 came to mind: ?And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.?? How fitting for this time of year when we celebrate the God who created the universe veiling His transcendent nature to step into time as a frail baby, coming full of both grace and truth.? 
?
I also came across a little book I read several years ago that I had forgotten about; it is called, ?The Grace and Truth Paradox ? Responding with Christlike Balance? by Randy Alcorn.? I reread it this weekend (it takes about an hour to read) and was struck with how perfectly Jesus embodied both grace and truth.? He is the lion and the lamb.
?
I have ordered a bunch to give away and would like to send a copy as a Christmas gift to whoever would like one.
?
Just let me know and give me an address.? 
?
Merry Christmas!
?
Tory
tory at trwengineering.com
?
?
?
?
?
?
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From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 15 04:33:02 2009
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:33:02 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] The Grace and Truth Paradox
In-Reply-To: <553564.87447.qm@web112417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <BD5D046C774E1548859199A99C2738371609FB5C95@34093-MBX-C03.mex07a.mlsrvr.com>,
	<553564.87447.qm@web112417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SNT125-W9B45FC95F4F7BB48023FCA7880@phx.gbl>


Thanks Tory for sharing your thoughts and studies with us.

 

Norman... I agree that it is sad how many people have to look overseas to adopt when there are children in our country that need adopting.  It is a shame that our system here in the US is so flawed that it makes that necessary.  I have 3 friends and a brother going through the adoption process now and they have now turned overseas.  I also had cousin that went through the US system to adopt.  In their case they took in 3 siblings to keep them together.  (They had 3 of their own already.)  The 3 kids had dog poop matted in their hair, teeth decaying and lice.  The youngest (3 year old) couldn't talk.  They were neglected and abused.  My cousin and her husband received the children from CPS and completed all the adoption paperwork.  They got the children healthy and worked with them to learn how to function in a home, a family and in school.  They were all settled and happy and then the parents came back 11 months later.  They had gone to parenting classes, been drug free for 60 days and been employed for 30 and changed their minds.  The judge awarded the children back to the parents.  The children were devastated and within two weeks were coming back to school with matted, poop-filled hair and bruises and the parents were once again unemployed.  It's heart-breaking how our system lets them down again and again.  It takes someone with a heart stronger than mine to go through that more than once.  So those I know that have been through the US system toward adoption are now looking to Ethiopia and Guatamala because those systems seem to be doing what is best for each child.  I understand why they go overseas but at the same time wish it wasn't necessary for the sake of the children we have in our own backyard.
 		 	   		  
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From bwiru80 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 15 06:30:15 2009
From: bwiru80 at yahoo.com (Janice Dunkerton)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:30:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ClassOf80] The Grace and Truth Paradox
In-Reply-To: <SNT125-W9B45FC95F4F7BB48023FCA7880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <469088.34783.qm@web52906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Mel, 
Thanks for that - because I wanted to say that same thing.????We adopted Zack from Korea and have been asked over and over why we went overseas instead of in the US and my answer has?always been "you can't?guarentee that?the?child will be yours?even when the?adoption has?gone through and papers are signed, there is always a loop-hole for the birth parents to come back and get them up to the age of 18."?? It happens why too many times and it is sad and too?bad.
?
I am looking forward to getting the book.? I don't write a lot on here when you get into discussions(waiting for the reunion for that - haha) but you all have interesting points of view and I am glad we can see that in each other.
?
Have a awesome rest of the week everyone,
Janice


      
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 15 08:11:17 2009
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:11:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ClassOf80] traffic
In-Reply-To: <469088.34783.qm@web52906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <469088.34783.qm@web52906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <142937.88626.qm@web112004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi All 

The adoptions from overseas arent all that perfect.?? Children from China and Ethiopia for certain (and maybe from all very poor countries) are being sold, and although many of the adoptions are clearly kosher (esp?children with deformities or HIV)? it also drives a hidden market.
I agree with Norman - support families, educate mothers, and social/economic justice will smooth the mountains and valleys.? And much of this suffering can be pre-empted.

Thats sad that parents can abuse and give away their own children for full adoption then take them back and repeat the cycle.???

Our local no-kill pet shelter is more cautious and compassionate than that. 

We are strange for a "civilized" country. 

-Julie 


      
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From tory at trwengineering.com  Thu Dec 17 13:32:37 2009
From: tory at trwengineering.com (Tory Walker)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:32:37 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] Grace and Truth Paradox book
Message-ID: <BD5D046C774E1548859199A99C273837160A1C61BD@34093-MBX-C03.mex07a.mlsrvr.com>

The books arrived today, so other than those who already responded, please let me know if you would like one, and I will mail it out.

Tory
tory at trwengineering.com<mailto:tory at trwengineering.com>







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From heffling at whidbey.com  Fri Dec 18 14:14:50 2009
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:14:50 -0800
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 10
References: <mailman.3.1261162819.13039.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <F0F7C6F36B5E4ED3A592329E28F300C7@Desktophp>

Yes, Tory. I'll take one to- Grace Hefflinger, 1467 Manor Way, Freeland, WA 
98249. Thanks so much! ( can reimburse you if you want...)
Grace
PS. Karibu to any of you who get up Seattle way- esp. our island; Whidbey! 
And Merry Christmas all!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org>
To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 10


> Send ClassOf80 mailing list submissions to
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> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ClassOf80 digest..."
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Grace and Truth Paradox book (Tory Walker)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:32:37 -0600
> From: Tory Walker <tory at trwengineering.com>
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Subject: [ClassOf80] Grace and Truth Paradox book
> Message-ID:
> <BD5D046C774E1548859199A99C273837160A1C61BD at 34093-MBX-C03.mex07a.mlsrvr.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The books arrived today, so other than those who already responded, please 
> let me know if you would like one, and I will mail it out.
>
> Tory
> tory at trwengineering.com<mailto:tory at trwengineering.com>
>
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>
> End of ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 10
> ***************************************** 



From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 22 10:37:45 2009
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:37:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ClassOf80] CHRISTMAS AND KWANZAA HANUKKAH NOEL YULE
In-Reply-To: <BD5D046C774E1548859199A99C2738371607FEEF76@34093-MBX-C03.mex07a.mlsrvr.com>
References: <BD5D046C774E1548859199A99C2738371607FEE783@34093-MBX-C03.mex07a.mlsrvr.com>
	<B822527E4CD442439446E84C44B59D2C018959342A@exchange-1.infotechserv.internal>
	<BD5D046C774E1548859199A99C2738371607FEEF76@34093-MBX-C03.mex07a.mlsrvr.com>
Message-ID: <186770.43667.qm@web112009.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>



HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL
?
I have been pondering this discussion about?US?Christians under siege, and not having kids in the school system (ever) i was really surprised?about how strictly?your kids are not allowed to speak or practice?rights to beliefs at school? -? a couple of you said this. 
?
honestly:? 
How can Pres Obama tell the schoolchildren that the "real meaning of?Christmas is that God sent?the Baby Jesus to earth to?give an opportunity for Peace on?Earth"????? Do you think this was a private Christian school?? and CNN is not subsidized?? But Obama's very office is subsidized?fully.... so at least he does not feel he's under?a gag order about his beliefs.?? 
?
The?senior surgeon (who?I replaced, in my little town) left several lovely?prints of Christ guiding the surgeon (male surgeon)?in?surgery.? 
?
I?have enjoyed the prints and left them in place, in a hospital that is government-subsidized (most hospitals accept medicare)
i am certain that?no?Islamic, Hindu, or even Jewish expression would be tolerated here - or in many public places.
?
ANYWAYS i hope you all had a wonderful solstice and that your Christmas will be the most meaningful and merry EVER.
?
BLESSINGS -? Julie


      
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 22 19:50:58 2009
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen FH)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 20:50:58 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1261508403.19428.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.7.1261508403.19428.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <SNT101-W25688278AFB8B54ABAFE188800@phx.gbl>




Merry Christmas to all and be safe. Steve
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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From energynorm at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 22 20:13:43 2009
From: energynorm at yahoo.com (Stormin' Norman)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:13:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Steve Holloway
In-Reply-To: <SNT101-W25688278AFB8B54ABAFE188800@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <71599.15224.qm@web112408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


Stephen,
?
We were just talking about you and Jen and that we should buy you an i-phone (actually HTC is better).?? The best travel gadget on this planet.? The google maps and live GPS would be incredible in Iraq.? We were in an?Kenyan village in Muranga, and the GPS showed the hut we were approaching as the locator GPS moved.? Ofcourse the live traffic and 3-D did not work.??? ? 
Are you in Austin for the holidays?? Merry X-mas.
--- On Tue, 12/22/09, Stephen FH <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Stephen FH <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 12
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 8:50 PM






Merry Christmas to all and be safe. Steve



Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. 
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 23 19:52:55 2009
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen FH)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:52:55 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 71, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1261594802.3502.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.7.1261594802.3502.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <SNT101-W65CAD64377F9BD856C8D2A887F0@phx.gbl>



Norman: No will be in my tent in Afghanastan tomorrow waking up with my new friends...Ya'll have a great day...Merry Christmas...steve
 		 	   		  
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