From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Wed Oct  1 00:06:36 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:06:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] contradictions?
Message-ID: <423861.40037.qm@web83104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Tory:

Your response was beautifully written and very inspirational.  Unfortunately, the majority of it was off point.  You really are a master of hypnotic language.  That is why I keep telling you I think you would make a great politician.  It's a very helpful skill for them.  I really am curious, not being facetious here, but does this style of language use come naturally to you or do you have to work at it?

As to the parts that are on point.  I will give you the exigesis thing.  Translation can be very tricky.  Unfortunately, most people who take the bible as the inspired word of God don't pay much attention to that.  Many don't have the wherewithal and very few take the time.

I also find it interesting that you acknowledge "apparent contradictions" but find there is always a very rational explanation that doesn't require mental gymnastics.  Here is the problem I see with that.  It is pretty much within our human nature to see our rational explanations as pretty plain and obvious and those by others we don't agree with as requiring excessive mental gymnastics (or mental illness or some other such thing).  You don't have to look any further than the political discussions on this list to see that.  Our rational explanations of what is going on in the world (e.g. the current financial meltdown) have way more to do with the ideas and beliefs we have going into it than to any facts that we see etc.  I think you have a belief that there aren't any contradictions in the bible - it is a foundation of your belief and your spirituality.  That makes it very easy to find rational explanations for any "apparent contradictions."  I know I'm
 repeating myself now, but I don't begrudge you your belief - I just abhor your unwillingness to take responsibility for it.  It is certainly much more comfortable as an individual to live with such certainty, but I think it creates great divisions and puts up a big wall between you and much of the world.  Give me mystery and uncertainty any day.

Peace out,

Mark



----- Original Message ----
From: Tory Walker <tory at trwengineering.com>

 
Mark wrote:
As far as the bible being your standard, it also says "though shalt not kill."  The bible has contradictions in it and we have to use some kind of reasoning to figure out how to use it if we are to use it as a standard.  It kind of sounds like you are using the parts of the bible that say what comes out to support the particular belief you have.
  
  
Mark,
  
You had to know when you wrote this that someone would call you on it.  Contradictions, eh?  Ah yes, ?Has God indeed said???
  
I just love God?s word; it is a rock, tried and proven. The best way to understand the Bible is to let it speak for itself and to explain itself in context.  It?s been said that a text without a context is a pretext. Charles Spurgeon once said, "Scripture is like a lion. Who ever heard of defending a lion? Just turn it loose; it will defend itself." I think there is a lot of truth in that.
  
Contradictions?  If that is true, I will sadly renounce everything I believe and agree that Christianity is no better than any old stinkin? religion, because the Bible would be just another book written by men.  And as you said, we would have to use some kind of reasoning to figure out how to use it if we are to use it as a standard.  But whose reasoning should we use?  A standard must be agreed upon by more than one person for it to be of any use.  Should we use your standard?  Should we use my standard (I sure hope not, because we will all be in trouble if we do)?  
  
But Christianity is not a religion; it is the truth; it is the way things really are in life. Dorothy Sayers wrote, "The test of any religion is not that it pleases us, but that it is true." That is a distinguishing mark of Christian faith -- explaining life the way it really is. The glory of Christianity is that it is knowledge that can free us from the lies that the world in its blindness is following to its own destruction.
  
We all struggle with things difficult to understand, and yes that includes some ?apparent contradictions? in the Bible; but I have consistently found there are always very rational explanations (and not by doing some mental gymnastics, either) to every one of them that I have been faced with.  In each case, I have found with a little investigation that I am not as smart or perceptive as I thought, and I have found myself more in awe of our great God.  Rom 11:33, 34 says, ?Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!  "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"  
  
As far as "though shalt not kill,? this is an
easy one and a good example of our limited English language.  The Hebrew
word (ratsach) is best translated ?murder.?  There are a
number of other Hebrew words translated ?kill? in different
contexts.  For example, killing an animal sacrifice (tabach) or God
Himself taking a life (muwth).  Modern translations rightly translate this
as ?murder.?
 
As with the OT, the NT also uses several different words for
?kill,? with ?phoneuo? being used by Jesus in Matt.
5:21 ("You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You
shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.').
 Anyone can easily find these things on one of the many Bible tools
available for free (www.blueletterbible.org or www.e-sword.net for example).
 
The best way to resolve this question, I think, is to
understand the context of capital punishment. It was established by God in
Genesis before the Mosaic law was given.  I recognize there is debate
among Christians as to whether or not capital punishment is still valid in this
age of grace, but Jesus never laid it aside.  While he taught His
disciples to love our enemies, to turn the other cheek, and similar things, He
also taught a lot about authority, and the importance of His disciples to obey
the government as an authority established by God.  Authority cannot be
assumed, it must be conferred, and all authority is given by God. Without
proper authority, we have no right to take a life. And when a government steps
out of the authority of God and seeks to establish its own authority
(totalitarianism for example), we are under no obligation to obey any laws that
are contrary to Him.
 
Whether or not a society enforces capital punishment, it is
important to make sure we understand and make the distinction between a secular
governmental structure established by God and personal responsibility to
God.  Rom. 13:4 says, ?For he [the governmental authority] is God's
minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear
the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath
on him who practices evil.?
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  1 13:01:24 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 14:01:24 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Cost of Illegals.
Message-ID: <BAY112-W404115D0C13C723D4DD1A988420@phx.gbl>


Mark awhile back we emailed about the cost of the war and I told you illegals were costing ...well a friend emailed me the web sites and if anyone is interested let me know because I would be glad to send you the sites for your own satisfaction. 
 
11-22 Billion(yes the B is correct) spent on welfare
2.2 Billion is spent on Food Assistance
2.5 Billion is spent on Medicaid (which americans have a hard time getting)
12.5 Billion for primary and secondary schooling
17 Billion for educating them further on in their life
3 Million a day for their prison stay
30% our prisoners are illegals- 2/3 more than the rate of other illegals from countries other than Mexico, Guatamala, Honduras etc
41-46 Billion a year to deport them
1 million sex crimes are committed by illegals... 
 
the total cost is $338 BILLION a year...adding the numbers up it does not jive-but consider the Boarder patrol salaries, cost of vechicles, health insurance, housing costs, fuel costs, detainment costs of illegals, state costs, federal government costs....
 
So you might want to change your mind on that boarder fence..and I am not against illegals-just let them come in the right way. steve
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Wed Oct  1 16:48:08 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 15:48:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Cost of Illegals.
Message-ID: <142402.49724.qm@web83101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sure Steve.  I'll bite.  What is the website.

Let me offer another suggestion.

<<41-46 Billion a year to deport them>>

I couldn't find recent statistics, but for the last five years of the last decade, about 50,000 illegals were deported a year.  Let's assume whatever agency does that job has increased ten fold in that time and it is up to 500,000 deported a year (probably not nearly that many).  That's $82,000 per deportee.  I'd say somebody needs to get a bit more efficient there or perhaps that isn't a good use of money.

Or perhaps these stats are wrong.  


________________________________
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. See Now
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Thu Oct  2 12:15:17 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:15:17 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1222970402.68340.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.3.1222970402.68340.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W5216ACC1D30B9A551CB74C883D0@phx.gbl>


Mark: More than one website so I am sending them to you on your personal email...so if any others want some good reading I will forward them to you. 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  3 08:15:21 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:15:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] killing vs. murder
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W5216ACC1D30B9A551CB74C883D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <304669.86272.qm@web34706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

HI STEVE

hi steve - i'd like your sources about illegal immegrants also 
- muchos gracias!

thanks for making my point about chicago street violence - where we need to really improve quality of life and schools. 
it is all of our problem, not just the problem of the inner cities.

i noticed you only count US deaths in iraq.   
civilian counts are way higher, 
not to mention the insurgent deaths, and the detainees deaths without trials.  

hopefully someday cheney, bush, rumsfeld, gonzalez, rice, petrais, et al 
will get an opportunity to explain themselves in a war-crime tribunal.  

amstutz - YES our country's insatiable drug market is the colossal common denominator behind US street wars.  so a gun ban alone is an incomplete solution.  

tory- your long thoughtful responses are always from a clearly loving and secure perspective.  i still think our morally safest ground is to kill as few humans as possible to avoid semantics about which are murders and which ones God really wants us to kill.   
we're not in a country where we can morally just say "Our government does capital punishment and Christ told us to give to Ceasar what is His".  Truthfully our civic duty in these times is to speak out against government immorality, or at least, at minimum, to vote. 

if 2000 yrs of Christianity had understood the bible as clearly as you do personally, there would not have been inquisitions, religious wars, killing of 90% of the americas natives in the name of God.  

grace- i used to believe and speak your words exactly about capital punishment/ the bible says/ and government.  but many years later, i no longer believe an individual can forfeit their right to live.  even the worst of the worst, even saddam and bin laden, are beloved children of God, and only their creator really knows their true worth.  

to keep it simple my stand is "take the lives of as few humans as possible".  


blindly loving humanity  -  julie






      


From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 11:58:29 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:58:29 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Controversy
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810031058w1be988cct243a5c84e1a759fe@mail.gmail.com>

Like Nancy, I am tired of this eDebate on politics. I think its time to chat
about something less controversy and something we all can agree on, Like
Apple Mac commercials are far superior to any of those Windoze commercials.
I mean come-on. The little "I'm a PC" guy is so endearing and hopeless you
have to love him. The "I'm a Mac" guy is a bit pretentious but then he has
every right to be, he is the best.

Uncle Bill does the one thing for which he is famous. Like in all ideas
Microsoft touts as new, They are just copied creations of Apple innovations
that Mac users have enjoyed for years.

Confirming the notion that Microsoft cannot have unique thoughts, if the
latest series of Uncle Bill commercials, where the central theme is "I'm a
PC" which is either a direct copy of the Mac Marketing theme, or as in most
cases of explanation by Microsoft, "Just coincidence".

I will agree that Apple missed the boat with iPod marketing showing
multicolored dancing and not the product features and the myopic  completely
insane pairing the iPhone with only ATT and not all cell phone carriers,
which shows that Jobs might be the giant in innovation, but Bill knew how to
Market products.

But with the slight wiggle of his tush to hint at a "completely chewwy and
yummy" new Windows OS (are we ready for a new windows OS??? Does anyone use
Vista yet, intentionally???) and a new reality show commercial with Bill and
Seinfeld living with a family,  making noises about stealing something (That
could be "I'm a Mac Family" and Bill, you stole my OS), I have lost all
faith in Microsofts ability to connect with anyone over the age of 10.

So at least we can all agree on something.

"Hi, I'm a Mac"
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From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 12:37:09 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 14:37:09 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Guns and Bans and Bans and Bans
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810031137y11a6bb06p25b5a966629275fb@mail.gmail.com>

Julie, I respect your opinions, We can all believe to see the world and
humanity in whatever reality is real to us.You obviously believe given the
right cultural circumstances that humans will live in peace and
co-exist with each other in an euphoric woodstock utopia.
I, on the other hand, believe given any circumstance, there are certain
humans that will lust over power, greed, lust, (can you lust over lust?) and
the mainstream populace will have to defend their freedoms and rights.

(And before Tory starts about the Lions laying with the Lambs, The
circumstances there are divinely inspired and not in the
normal circumstance of our discussion.)

To pull up the argument of the slippery slope, so we as a culture ban gun
ownership, leaving the guns in the hands of the criminals which we all agree
wont just decide to turn in their guns because there is a ban on them. So
for just one minute lets fantasize that somehow thru an Obama type moment,
that all the criminals turn in their guns. So Criminals are not going to
start using diplomacy to rob you. Can you imagine someone walking up and
saying "If you dont give me your money, I will talk to death". No. They will
come armed with a knife or a club. Ok so now we will have an increase in
deaths related to knives. So we Ban knives. And clubs. And in a knee jerk
reaction we Ban forks, prongs, bats, and fists. Anyone caught making a Fist
would be put in jail. So we are down to talking again. But any threatening
remarks are now Banned as well. No threats, no controversial statements, no
insults.
A rather steep slope I paint Mark, so dont deride me, I admit it.
OR maybe instead of Banning guns, we just Ban defending ourselves. Anyone
caught defending themselves would be prosecuted. This would work because the
people owning guns legally are the ones that obey the law. So by banning
defending yourself you would actually have law abiding citizens.
Steve, I am not advocating this but I think the courts are kinda mostly
there already.

The way to stop the underground Drug wars and industry is to legalize all
drug use. This would have two benifits. It would make the drug trade open,
taxable, affordable, loosening the power of gangs, and second, it would curb
the population as all the drugies would eventually overdose and die off.
Because Drugs would be so available, half the current drugies would overdose
in the first month, then the idiots would get hooked and die off in the next
few years, then the culture as a whole would start to condemn those that use
drugs.
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  3 12:39:30 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:39:30 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1223056802.17154.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.5.1223056802.17154.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W4137DB57A787F19C1144E3883C0@phx.gbl>


Julie: You can't forget Clinton, Gore, and what about Reno the worst of them all - killing those Davidians like animals..that happened in my state and I am still disgusted that happened....she should be serving a life sentence for killing those innocent people- kids included....where was their justice? 
 
And sorry you can wish all you want but their will be no Tribunal for those you stated because we were attacked on 9-11. And what would you like them to explain to the Judges?  Hey pardner (most of you think he talks like that) or howdy from the U.S.... let me tell you a story of what happened on 9-11... we were minding our own business and all of a sudden wham they attacked and I attacked back... thats my story...sorry for you time but some Americans wanted me to explain to ya'll what happened and take up your time and waste another 5 million bucks in tax payer money.  And  Julie by what I read into your email those 3000 people that died were worthless Americans- expendable.
 
Yes civilian deaths are high but that is only because they are doing it to themselves over here in Iraq... And who are you to say the civilian deaths are too high when they are higher in Chicago or Detroit, Sudan, Nigeria, South Africa, Ethiopia, India, Bangadesh and China among others. 
 
Let God decide who needs to be punished... 
 
I am ending this-      fight to win... steve
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
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From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 13:09:37 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 15:09:37 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Bush is at fault
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810031209u13294393i5f81fc0edde351f9@mail.gmail.com>

Seems these days Bush is at fault for just about everything.
Doesnt matter what it is, Bush is at fault. Oh I agree we as Americans can
be grossly irresponsible but I don't agree that Bush is the blight on the
planet that some think he is.

We all know that before Republicans, everyone on the North American
Continent lived in harmonious existence with each other. Native American
Tribes didn't fight and kill each other with alarming regularity, the Aztecs
didn't kill thousands in religious ceremonial sacrifices, and the Incas
didn't enjoy slaughtering every neighboring civilization to expand their
control.
African nations didn't participate in Slave trade with Arab nations,
selling conquered people as cattle.

Since we are starting War Crimes for Bush and cabinet, I guess we should
start one for George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt,
Theodore Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Ike Esinhower, Ulysis Grant, Ronald
Reagan, and Bill Clinton. (just to name a few)

Oddly enough, While I heard a call for War Crimes Tribunal against our
leaders of this fine country, i didnt hear any mention of bringing Bin
Laden, Ossorrif and the rest of the ElQida leadership to any War Crimes
Tribunal. It would seem that only perceived atrocities on our side count.

Maybe if we banned Guns from our military, it would help....
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Fri Oct  3 13:10:38 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:10:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 3
Message-ID: <465265.79250.qm@web83105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Steve said:


 <<And  Julie by what I read into your email those 3000 people that died were worthless Americans- expendable.>>

Julie said:

<<blindly loving humanity  -  julie>>

Dude.  Please.  At least read her whole email.

Thanks everyone for the spirited discussion.  
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From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 13:27:24 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 15:27:24 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Appologies
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810031227n28bf00cblea0c8c3b123d5b35@mail.gmail.com>

I apologize if any of my remarks were personal in nature.I believe America
is the best country, the shinning light to the rest of the world, and the
only nation capable of defending democracy and preventing anarchy in this
turbulent world.
Of those of us that have lived in Third world cultures where we have seen
the depravity of regimes that care only about power, and not about the
people, we would understand that America must be strong and that there is no
negotiating with someone that is intent of dieing to kill our way of life.
We make mistakes, we make blunders, But since half the world wants to be
here and the other half wants to kill us, we must be doing something right.

There are a great many atrocities going on in this world, yet to single out
our leadership, no matter how much you hate Bush, when this administration
and this Gov't and this Country and our men and women are fighting and
dieing to protect each and every one of us, from those that want to destroy
our way of life, is incorrigible. You hate Bush, thats fine, Vote Obama. You
love terrorists, thats fine, Vote Obama.

I think we should strap bombs to each Guantanmo detainee and let them loose
on Your street....and see who is right.
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Fri Oct  3 14:00:59 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:00:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <3a6242f10810031227n28bf00cblea0c8c3b123d5b35@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <590659.96993.qm@web34702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

amstutz  i am crying.     not.

i hope we're still the best...  
but are we somehow above the geneva convention? 
where do we get off rewriting human rights for our own agenda? 

we have to do better than this. 

and if the world was so black and white, we could just let junkies die off.  but we really need (expensive) quality of life changes, in the social vacuums where kids are getting hooked.  
like we need excellent schools with better activities.  jobs for dads.  decent daycare.  all of these cost money.   

ps many more people are dying of violence around drug trade than are dying of drugs.   it's such a lucrative business in an insatiable market.   i'm still not for legalizing (i even think alcohol laws are too lax).   but again, we need to find a way to get tons of guns out of the streets.   and address the root social problems.  (that costs money)

peace -  julie 
 




      


From bwanapc at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 15:32:14 2008
From: bwanapc at gmail.com (Jonathan Bainbridge)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:32:14 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Appologies
In-Reply-To: <3a6242f10810031227n28bf00cblea0c8c3b123d5b35@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a6242f10810031227n28bf00cblea0c8c3b123d5b35@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e04aa3030810031432sf055f7aga5beabb8997f1417@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Daniel Amstutz <kewlbigdan at gmail.com> wrote:
> I apologize if any of my remarks were personal in nature.
> I believe America is the best country, the shinning light to the rest of the
> world, and the only nation capable of defending democracy and preventing
> anarchy in this turbulent world.

Dude. I love America, but I don't by extension love our government in
Washington. Two different things entirely. When we equate our
government with our nation we lose perspective on what made the
country great in the past and how we, the citizens, might have a
chance to make it great again one day.

As for democracy and defending democracy, well we support the Saudi
King, but not the Palestinian National Authority, one democratically
elected and one an absolute dictator. We don't like the democratically
elected government in Bolivia so we start to talk to the opposition.
We supported the previous government, Saddam's, in Iraq, at least
until daddy bush thought it was going to steal our oil, so he got
peeved at Saddam, the same guy that he had supported when he, daddy
bush, headed the CIA and supported while he was VP under Reagan. (read
the book Spider's Web) We really mean that we support the governments
that agree, or appear to agree with our stance, or the ones that are
too scared of us to articulate other wise. We rail against
autocracies, unless those autocracies do what we want them to do
(Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc.), and we ignore or worse do business with
governments that are totalitarian, but strong enough to stand up to
us. (China)

>SNIP

> We make mistakes, we make blunders, But since half the world wants to be
> here and the other half wants to kill us, we must be doing something right.

They want to be here because we are rich not because of some
ideological notion of democracy. People start to think of democracy
after their bellies are full. We didn't have a revolution because we
were starving, we had a revolution because of taxes (Boston tea party,
taxation without representation, etc.) Here's an interesting story on
Undocumented Visitors,
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1241440.html.
The ones that hate us, hate us because their pastors tell them to hate
us, oops read imams instead of pastors. They don't have any idea what
they are hating, any more than the vast majority of Americans could
really recount the reasons or non-reasons we are in Iraq and
Afghanistan.

>Snip

> You hate Bush, thats fine, Vote Obama. You
> love terrorists, thats fine, Vote Obama.

I don't particularly hate Bush, don't love him, didn't vote for him,
but I don't hate him. Other than getting us into a "war" I am not sure
what he has done; well, or even just OK. He hasn't shown any real
leadership other than a vague pointing off there and saying go get 'em
boys. We can't really blame the economy on him because it was really a
bipartisan screw up that let it happen. Just like in about ten years
there will be another financial melt down that we will have to bail
out. (Remember the late 90s melt down, the SnL melt down, etc)

I am not planning to vote for Obama, I am not planning to vote for
McCain (pity about Palin tho), but because I am not going to vote for
them doesn't mean I hate them.

> I think we should strap bombs to each Guantanmo detainee and let them loose
> on Your street....and see who is right.

Can I choose which ones I want?


From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  3 16:28:00 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 17:28:00 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 4
Message-ID: <BAY112-W328935315D80FAB048CFF4883C0@phx.gbl>


Mark; thanks- I did read her email and all it said was Bush, Cheny, Rumsfield, Petras should go to the Hague for trial and I told her what about the previous ole wild an cheating Bill, Bore and Janet the murderer of  David Koresh and his followers... 
 
It amazes me that no one will ever admit it but ole wild and cheating Bill could of played a big part in stopping Bin Ladin but he was to busy to say fire the missile...
 
Julie: Please don't cry. 
 
Daniel: If it goes the way you said- knives then clubs and so on.... I am moving to a far away island off the coast of Thailand.
 
And there we go again- fighting for oil...give me a break...  
 
Fight to win.....  steve
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go.
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From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct  3 17:10:03 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 18:10:03 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fireproof
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W328935315D80FAB048CFF4883C0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY112-W328935315D80FAB048CFF4883C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W2965EA540E8D07CD1F635A73C0@phx.gbl>

Has anybody here been to see the movie Fireproof yet?  They just had a story about it on ABC News Tonight which kind of surprised me.  What?  The media covering a Christian-based movie?  I wondered if anybody's seen it and has an opinion on it?  Good enough for me to pay a babysitter and go?  I really enjoyed Facing the Giants on dvd and it's the same group making Fireproof so I'm feeling like it must be good.
_________________________________________________________________
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
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From tory at trwengineering.com  Fri Oct  3 18:24:37 2008
From: tory at trwengineering.com (Tory Walker)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 17:24:37 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fireproof
In-Reply-To: <BAY137-W2965EA540E8D07CD1F635A73C0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY112-W328935315D80FAB048CFF4883C0@phx.gbl>
	<BAY137-W2965EA540E8D07CD1F635A73C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <016001c925b7$96676090$c33621b0$@com>

I recommend it highly.  For a low budget Christian movie, I was very
impressed.  I think Kirk Cameron did a fantastic job, and while some of the
acting was not stellar, the story makes up for it.

Tory (your movie critic for this weekend only)

 

 

From: Melanie Phifer [mailto:mphifer63 at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 4:10 PM
To: RVA class of '80
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fireproof

 

Has anybody here been to see the movie Fireproof yet?  They just had a story
about it on ABC News Tonight which kind of surprised me.  What?  The media
covering a Christian-based movie?  I wondered if anybody's seen it and has
an opinion on it?  Good enough for me to pay a babysitter and go?  I really
enjoyed Facing the Giants on dvd and it's the same group making Fireproof so
I'm feeling like it must be good.

  _____  

 

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From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 20:54:15 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (kewlbigdan)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 22:54:15 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 4
In-Reply-To: <mailman.580.1223069543.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.580.1223069543.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <CDF58707-0258-4934-B725-EADD8A0C7753@gmail.com>


Holy Toledo Batman
Bum wrote more than one line!!!!

Ok did Lynda make you write all that? Come-on. Be honest.
She did didn't she? Am I right? or am I right?
right?
right?

Oddly enough I don't even own a gun, have no desire to own a gun. And  
would be way to scaried I'd use it on someone if I owned a gun. We are  
all safer with me not owning a gun.

And Sir BwanaPC can't argue for the PC because he has been  
converted...to the MAC side.....(evil) hahahahahaha


From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Sat Oct  4 01:42:17 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:42:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Patriotism
Message-ID: <591790.9253.qm@web83105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

OK guys.  Once again you are keeping me up way too late.  I guess I should take responsibility for my own behavior huh, nobody really wants to hear this.

I think this is a great country as well.  I am kind of bothered that patriotism at times seems to be more equated with flag waving and its ilk rather than supporting the principles the country was supposed to be built on.  Personally, I think George Bush was a horrible president who has damaged the country in a number of ways and it is my patriotic duty to do what I can against him.  And as for comparing him to other "war criminals," I do hold him and anyone in office in this country to a higher standard.  It's my country and they are supposed to be better.  As for Osama Bin Laden and the rest of alQaeda.  I would say don't bother with war crimes trials, just make it criminal or assume we are at war with them.  Of course we have to find and catch them first.

There is another patriotism related thing that bothers me.  We as a country and I think many on this list seem to value American lives more than non American lives.  And if we were to really be honest we would probably have to acknowledge a hierarchy of value based on such issues as race, religion, language spoken, etc.  I may love this country but I try to think of myself as first a citizen of the world and to recognize that all lives have equal value.  I certainly don't live up to that all the time, but I strive to.

What are you guys going to do without my dissenting voice when I am gone on my honeymoon for a week?

Mark
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From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  4 06:45:00 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 07:45:00 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fireproof
In-Reply-To: <016001c925b7$96676090$c33621b0$@com>
References: <BAY112-W328935315D80FAB048CFF4883C0@phx.gbl>
	<BAY137-W2965EA540E8D07CD1F635A73C0@phx.gbl> 
	<016001c925b7$96676090$c33621b0$@com>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W34D3176BDA47BB9E2723A4A73F0@phx.gbl>

Thanks for the review Tory.  Now....will you volunteer to drop by and keep my kids for a couple of hours while we go see the movie???  

From: tory at trwengineering.comTo: classof80 at rvaalumni.orgDate: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 17:24:37 -0700Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Fireproof






I recommend it highly.  For a low budget Christian movie, I was very impressed.  I think Kirk Cameron did a fantastic job, and while some of the acting was not stellar, the story makes up for it.
Tory (your movie critic for this weekend only)

 
 


From: Melanie Phifer [mailto:mphifer63 at hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 4:10 PMTo: RVA class of '80Subject: [ClassOf80] Fireproof
 
Has anybody here been to see the movie Fireproof yet?  They just had a story about it on ABC News Tonight which kind of surprised me.  What?  The media covering a Christian-based movie?  I wondered if anybody's seen it and has an opinion on it?  Good enough for me to pay a babysitter and go?  I really enjoyed Facing the Giants on dvd and it's the same group making Fireproof so I'm feeling like it must be good.



 
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/
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From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Sat Oct  4 09:51:43 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (kewlbigdan)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:51:43 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.590.1223124317.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.590.1223124317.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <A9CFC44D-0CF1-4B31-8415-B3FA3192310C@gmail.com>

Mark;
...you mean you wont be reading our emails on your honeymoon???????????


From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  4 11:08:17 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:08:17 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.591.1223124317.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.591.1223124317.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W358E77D6E7539C117BBF23883F0@phx.gbl>


Mark: First of all take your computer with you on your honeymoon-heck I went fishing on mine so I am sure a computer would be allowed... 
 
Deep subject-do I value my life more that an African, Arab, Italian, Irish???? Do I think I am better than them? No- God made us equal so that is how I see every life. But when a religion goes and says I am infidel- well ya'll all know what I am for. 
 
fight to win. steve 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
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From gener at search-institute.org  Sat Oct  4 11:52:33 2008
From: gener at search-institute.org (Gene Roehlkepartain)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:52:33 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W358E77D6E7539C117BBF23883F0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.591.1223124317.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
	<BAY112-W358E77D6E7539C117BBF23883F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1be738890810041052l670041edh7323cc39a7f1d1d0@mail.gmail.com>

Let's extend the logic.

Some Christians (I exclude myself) consider people from other religions to
be "heathens" and "lost" and "going to hell." So I'm not sure how that's any
better from a global perspective than some people (again, not all)
considering someone outside of their own belief system to be "infidels,"
which literally means "one without faith."

I don't think we can have it both ways.

Gene
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." ? Mahatma Gandhi
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Stephen M H <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Mark: First of all take your computer with you on your honeymoon-heck I
> went fishing on mine so I am sure a computer would be allowed...
>
> Deep subject-do I value my life more that an African, Arab, Italian,
> Irish???? Do I think I am better than them? No- God made us equal so that is
> how I see every life. But when a religion goes and says I am infidel- well
> ya'll all know what I am for.
>
> fight to win. steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn
> Now<http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns%21550F681DAD532637%215295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_getmore_092008>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
>
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From Swissmiss at compuserve.com  Sat Oct  4 12:26:30 2008
From: Swissmiss at compuserve.com (Nancy Maillefer)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:26:30 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Barnett
Message-ID: <200810041426_MC3-2-133E-4543@compuserve.com>

Maybe I missed some emails again but this came to me. May be too long to be
allowed through and the photo? But I had forgotten why John was ill. Nice
change of reading.  Nancy


> Subj: FW: John Barnett's death 
> Date:02.10.2008 20:19:37 Central Daylight Time
> From
> To:S

> From: Tamara 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:10 PM
> To: 
> Subject: FW: John Barnett's death
> 
> --- On Tue, 9/30/08, Margaret Rineer <Rick-t> 
> wrote:
> 
> From: Margaret Rineer <Ric
> Subject: RE: [rift84] John Barnett's death
> To: r
> Received: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 12:05 PM
> 
> Just less than a year ago, in October 2007, John was diagnosed with Stage
IV 
> Lymphoma and was not expected to live very long.  He went through
extensive 
> chemo in Nairobi and made a remarkable recovery for a number of months. 
Then 
> in July he had a reoccurrence and started back on chemo.  Three weeks ago
he 
> was feeling worse and an infection was diagnosed which his immune system
was 
> not able to fight off.  He became weaker each day and was in quite a bit
of 
> pain, so his family has expressed how thankful they are that he is out of
all 
> suffering, but they are, understandably, hurting tremendously??? I???m 
> including an email (below) that I received from John &Elaine on September
1st, with 
> pictures taken of their family this summer as well as some words from
John???s 
> heart.  By the way, he graduated from RVA in 1958 and served on RVA???s
staff 
> for over 40 years.  He was one of Rick???s teachers at RVA and Rick
attended John 
> &Elaine???s wedding while an RVA student in the late 1960???s.  Since
serving 
> with them at RVA in the early 80???s we???ve stayed in close touch, and
it was a 
> particular joy to have them as our next door neighbors in Kijabe in 2001.
He 
> has served the Lord faithfully in so many areas at RVA and heaven is
going to 
> reveal all the ways his life and service touched thousands.  I know
boarding 
> school was fraught with struggles, but folks like John & Elaine truly
cared 
> and helped make a difference.  Thanks for holding his family up in
prayer!    
>  
> 
  Much love to each of you ~ Aunt Margaret    
> 
> 
> 
>                               
> 
> 
> 
>                                   Glenn and Amy and their four on our
right 
> (left of picture).  
> 
>                                        Jon and Melissa and their three on

> our left 
> 
> 
>                         
> 
> 
>                    Babu and Shosho with Glenn and Amy???s four on our
right ??? 
> Erik and Ethan (twins), 
> 
> 
>                       Eva and Elli.  Jon and Melissa???s three on our
left ??? 
> Rachel, Andrew and Joshua.  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> FROM; John & Elaine:
> Dear Family and Friends, 
> 
> Here is a long overdue note to all of you out there. 
> 
> At the beginning of June Glenn and Amy and their four children stopped
here 
> in Kenya on their way to the States for their four month home assignment.
 We 
> were able to spend five nights with them at the coast.  Where we stayed
had 
> an excellent program for the kids so Glenn and Amy had a lot of free time

> together and we adults even got to eat lunch and supper without the kids.
 It 
> was a wonderful time for all of us.  When we returned to Kijabe Jon and
Melissa 
> and their three children joined us.  It was a bit hectic at times but we 
> enjoyed having the whole family together and the cousins enjoyed getting
to know 
> each other and playing together.  Glenn and Amy are now full members of
the 
> Association of Baptists for World Evangelism (ABWE).  Pray that their
needed 
> support will be complete before their scheduled departure to return to S.

> Africa on Sept. 23 [they had just arrived back in S Africa, and Glenn was
able 
> to get to Kenya to spend the last few days with his Dad]. They are
presently 
> in CA and will fly out of SanFransisco. Pray for Jon and Melissa  Jon has
a 
> lot of added responsibilities with the missionary nurse having left and
the 
> African nurse preparing to leave to become a pastor. [Jon and Melissa are
AIM 
> missionaries in Tanzania, where Jon is a doctor.  Their family was able
to get 
> to Kenya a few days ago to spend time with John.  And Paul, John???s
twin, and 
> Phyliss Barnett flew to Kenya from PA a few days ago to be with them as 
> well].  
> 
> Last week we received some exciting, unexpected news.  Elaine has been 
> chosen as Alumnus of the Year for Philadelphia Biblical University!  She
will be 
> honored October 3, 4. With shortness of notice and other circumstances
she may 
> not be able to attend personally. [I know that if God wants me to be
there, 
> He will provide all the needed things to take place to free me to attend,

> which humanly I would love to do! - Elaine speaking] [John???s Memorial
Service &
> burial will be at Kijabe on Oct. 4 instead] 

> From July 14-28 we were with Jon and Melissa in Tanzania.  I did a lot of

> projects around the house and Elaine had a lot of time to spend with the 
> grandchildren.  She also went on bird walks with Melissa.   
> 
> While in Tanzania I noticed a small lump.  On getting it checked out as
soon 
> as we got back pathology reported lymphoma cells again.  CT scans in
Nairobi 
> confirmed "activity" and I have received another chemo treatment.  Next
one 
> is scheduled for September 8.  We are being told the lymphoma that I have
is 
> not medically curable but that it is treatable.  The doctor is
encouraging in 
> that he is reasonably sure that we can get the cancer into remission
again.  
> 
> 
> Two days before I found out about the return of the cancer I was mulling 
> over this quote: "The purpose of our trials is not only to test our faith
but 
> also to increase it, just as the mighty oak is tested by the storms as
well as 
> strenghtened by them."  One friend suggested that my response to this
illness 
> stems from a strong faith.  That is no doubt true of many of the "saints"

> but my response stems from a faith that is growing. Adversity has a way
of 
> doing that. The bottom line is still that God loves us and He is in
control. None 
> of us know what the future holds. On July 15 one of our 2006 grads [Ben 
> Entwistle] died from complications of a rheumatic heart. He was 20 years
old. I 
> am grateful for the years God has given and for Elaine who has stood
beside me 
> for 40 years. God has been good through the years. Mungu asifiwe! (God be

> praised or Praise the Lord)" 
> 
> We are also grateful for your continued prayers and the notes of 
> encouragement that we receive.     Looking up,
> John and Elaine
> 
> 
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From Swissmiss at compuserve.com  Sat Oct  4 12:26:17 2008
From: Swissmiss at compuserve.com (Nancy Maillefer)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:26:17 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fireproof
Message-ID: <200810041426_MC3-2-133E-4541@compuserve.com>

We probably need to keep in mind that there may be some emails people don't
read in all this debate. I didn't get Mel's original of this and so where
there's some misunderstandings may be due to firewalls filtering some
out???

Nancy


From Swissmiss at compuserve.com  Sat Oct  4 12:26:18 2008
From: Swissmiss at compuserve.com (Nancy Maillefer)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:26:18 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80]  Guns and Bans and Bans and Bans
Message-ID: <200810041426_MC3-2-133E-4542@compuserve.com>

Okay......so where is Mr. Harding to end this class??  :) 

 And, yes, Mark, shouldn't you be planning a wedding or something, rumor
has it, or at least talking to the woman instead of debating with us? 

 Faceless,  N


From Swissmiss at compuserve.com  Sat Oct  4 12:26:32 2008
From: Swissmiss at compuserve.com (Nancy Maillefer)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:26:32 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Message to the USA from Her Majesty the Queen
Message-ID: <200810041426_MC3-2-133E-4544@compuserve.com>

Sorry......... for the overflow....... I'm only reading all your emails
today.........  since Kenya had a British background, you should all
understand this........  :)  N

 
To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty 
Queen Elizabeth II 


In light of your utter failure in recent years to elect competent
candidates 
for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give
notice 
of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately. 


Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties
over 
all states, commonwealths, and territories (except Kansas and Texas , which

she does not fancy). 
 

Your new Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, will appoint a Governor for America 
without the need for further elections. 


Congress and the Senate will be disbanded.  A questionnaire may be
circulated 
next year to determine whether any of you noticed. 
 
To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules

are introduced with immediate effect: 

(You should look up 'revocation' in the Oxford English Dictionary.) 


1. Then look up aluminium, and check the pronunciation guide. You will be 
amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. 


2. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'colour', 'favour', 
'labour' and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut'
without 
skipping half the letters, and the suffix '-ize' will be replaced by the
suffix 
'-ise'. Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to
acceptable 
levels. (look up 'vocabulary'). 

 
 
3. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such
as 
'like' and 'you know' is an unacceptable and inefficient form of 
communication. There is no such thing as US English. We will let M*crosoft
know on your 
behalf. The M*crosoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account
the 
reinstated letter 'u' and the elimination of -ize. 


4. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday. 


5. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers,
or 
therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows
that 
you're not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for
shooting 
grouse. If you can't sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a

therapist then you're not ready to shoot grouse. 


6. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more 
dangerous than a vegetable peeler. Although a permit will be required if
you wish 
to carry a vegetable peeler in public. 


7. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start 
driving on the left side with immediate effect. At the same time, you will
go 
metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables.
Both 
roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of 
humour. 



8. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been
calling 
gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it. 


9. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries
are 
not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are 
properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and
dressed 
not with catsup but with vinegar. 


10. The cold tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually
beer 
at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer,

and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as 
Lager. South African beer is also acceptable as they are pound for pound
the 
greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer. They
are also 
part of the British Commonwealth - see what it did for them. American
brands 
will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine, so that all can be sold 
without risk of further confusion. 


11. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good 
guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play
English 
characters. Watching Andie MacDowell attempt English dialogue in 'Four
Weddings 
and a Funeral' was an experience akin to having one's ears removed with a 
cheese grater. 
 

12. You will cease playing American football. There is only one kindof
proper 
football; you call it soccer. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be 
allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football,
but does 
not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar

body armour like a bunch of nancies). When you try rugby, be aware that the

South Africans and Kiwis will thrash you, like they regularly thrash us.
 

13. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host
an 
event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of 
America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your
borders, your 
error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face
the 
South Africans first to take the sting out of their deliveries.
 

14. You must tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us mad.
 

15. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her 
Majesty'sGovernment will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of
all monies due 
(backdated to 1776).
 

16. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 pm with proper cups, with saucers, 
and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes;plus
strawberries 
(with cream) when in season.
 

God Save the Queen!



From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Sat Oct  4 15:00:03 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:00:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] patriotism II
Message-ID: <152508.94300.qm@web83101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I meant to include this in the original patriotism post but forgot - age and impending marriage do terrible things to the memory.

I don't know if anyone else took on Gene's suggestion to read Eboo Patel's book "Acts of Faith:  the Story of an American Muslim, the Struggle for the Soul of a Generation," but I recommend it.  In chapter 5, An American in India, he wrote a passage that expressed such patriotism, yes, American patriotism, that it made me tear up.  And this from a man who experienced a good deal of ostracism in this country based on his religion and the color (oops, colour, sorry Nancy) of his skin.  It is inspirational.  I think he spoke about the strengths of this country and its founding ideas in one of the best ways I have ever read it.

Mark
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From tory at trwengineering.com  Sat Oct  4 16:38:07 2008
From: tory at trwengineering.com (tory at trwengineering.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:38:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fireproof
In-Reply-To: <BAY137-W34D3176BDA47BB9E2723A4A73F0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY112-W328935315D80FAB048CFF4883C0@phx.gbl>
	<BAY137-W2965EA540E8D07CD1F635A73C0@phx.gbl>
	<016001c925b7$96676090$c33621b0$@com>
	<BAY137-W34D3176BDA47BB9E2723A4A73F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1267.75.49.39.194.1223159887.squirrel@www.trwengineering.com>

I just checked my email, Mel.  I would, but gosh darn it I think it is too
late to help you out.  Tell me what you think of the movie.
Tory

> Thanks for the review Tory.  Now....will you volunteer to drop by and keep
> my kids for a couple of hours while we go see the movie???




From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  4 22:41:53 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 21:41:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] torture/global solutions
In-Reply-To: <152508.94300.qm@web83101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <55629.58169.qm@web34708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

sigh.   
 
ANALYSIS Obama vs_McCain on Torture Global Solutions.mht



hey steve, can you re-send the immigration references, 
i read half then accidentally deleted the whole e-mail (which went to my spam folder originally)

thanks - julie


      


From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  4 22:32:31 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 21:32:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] human rights
In-Reply-To: <152508.94300.qm@web83101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <79560.50620.qm@web34704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

nancy are you really bored by the perspectives and the elections?  or just exhausted?

we're facing problems that can end this country if unsolved.  
oh, hell. no country lasts forever right? 

here's a short attachment about torture - some of our detainees have died of torture in this war, and it is tiring, but try to imagine...we the US are doing that.  few detainees reach trials, many are not even proven enemies.   

mccain is quoted in this article that the US is above torture.  (having been tortured himself, McCain was strongly against it 'till he was for it).
i think he must be sick about his own decision to support water boarding but by that time he was planning to run for president and presumably was saying whatever he thought would help his platform? 

anyone curious google "McCain Obama torture".  

-julie for humanity
 




      


From smergenthal at verizon.net  Sun Oct  5 13:32:29 2008
From: smergenthal at verizon.net (Sheri Mergenthal)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 12:32:29 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] Need John & Gini Armes' Phone # ASAP
Message-ID: <48E9164D.2060403@verizon.net>

My mom & stepdad are traveling through Albequerque and need some info. 
Will be there in ~3 hrs. John & Gini, please phone me on my cell @ 
805-890-9086 or if someone else sees this first and has their #, please 
call to give it to me! Thx --Sheri


From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Sun Oct  5 18:35:46 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (kewlbigdan)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:35:46 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4.1223143201.56324.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.4.1223143201.56324.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <99E46635-C2BB-4AF4-9C53-27CF41DD9169@gmail.com>

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." ? Mahatma Gandhi

I beg to difer with the great Gandi, An eye for an eye could not  
posibly make the WHOLE world blind, and there would have to be ONE eye  
left at the end.


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From heffling at whidbey.com  Sun Oct  5 23:39:06 2008
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:39:06 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 7
References: <mailman.601.1223144859.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <002001c92775$d97c51f0$2102a8c0@Desktophp>

Gene,
Thanks for all you do to maintain this site. Is there anyway it could 
accomadate pictures? It would be so nice to be able to share some with each 
other.
Grace
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org>
To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 11:27 AM
Subject: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 7


> Send ClassOf80 mailing list submissions to
> classof80 at rvaalumni.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> classof80-request at rvaalumni.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> classof80-owner at rvaalumni.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ClassOf80 digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Barnett (Nancy Maillefer)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:26:30 -0400
> From: Nancy Maillefer <Swissmiss at compuserve.com>
> Subject: [ClassOf80] Barnett
> To: RVA <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Message-ID: <200810041426_MC3-2-133E-4543 at compuserve.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Maybe I missed some emails again but this came to me. May be too long to 
> be
> allowed through and the photo? But I had forgotten why John was ill. Nice
> change of reading.  Nancy
>
>
>> Subj: FW: John Barnett's death
>> Date:02.10.2008 20:19:37 Central Daylight Time
>> From
>> To:S
>
>> From: Tamara
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:10 PM
>> To:
>> Subject: FW: John Barnett's death
>>
>> --- On Tue, 9/30/08, Margaret Rineer <Rick-t>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Margaret Rineer <Ric
>> Subject: RE: [rift84] John Barnett's death
>> To: r
>> Received: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 12:05 PM
>>
>> Just less than a year ago, in October 2007, John was diagnosed with Stage
> IV
>> Lymphoma and was not expected to live very long.  He went through
> extensive
>> chemo in Nairobi and made a remarkable recovery for a number of months.
> Then
>> in July he had a reoccurrence and started back on chemo.  Three weeks ago
> he
>> was feeling worse and an infection was diagnosed which his immune system
> was
>> not able to fight off.  He became weaker each day and was in quite a bit
> of
>> pain, so his family has expressed how thankful they are that he is out of
> all
>> suffering, but they are, understandably, hurting tremendously??? I???m
>> including an email (below) that I received from John &Elaine on September
> 1st, with
>> pictures taken of their family this summer as well as some words from
> John???s
>> heart.  By the way, he graduated from RVA in 1958 and served on RVA???s
> staff
>> for over 40 years.  He was one of Rick???s teachers at RVA and Rick
> attended John
>> &Elaine???s wedding while an RVA student in the late 1960???s.  Since
> serving
>> with them at RVA in the early 80???s we???ve stayed in close touch, and
> it was a
>> particular joy to have them as our next door neighbors in Kijabe in 2001.
> He
>> has served the Lord faithfully in so many areas at RVA and heaven is
> going to
>> reveal all the ways his life and service touched thousands.  I know
> boarding
>> school was fraught with struggles, but folks like John & Elaine truly
> cared
>> and helped make a difference.  Thanks for holding his family up in
> prayer!
>>
>>
>  Much love to each of you ~ Aunt Margaret
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                                   Glenn and Amy and their four on our
> right
>> (left of picture).
>>
>>                                        Jon and Melissa and their three on
>
>> our left
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                    Babu and Shosho with Glenn and Amy???s four on our
> right ???
>> Erik and Ethan (twins),
>>
>>
>>                       Eva and Elli.  Jon and Melissa???s three on our
> left ???
>> Rachel, Andrew and Joshua.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> FROM; John & Elaine:
>> Dear Family and Friends,
>>
>> Here is a long overdue note to all of you out there.
>>
>> At the beginning of June Glenn and Amy and their four children stopped
> here
>> in Kenya on their way to the States for their four month home assignment.
> We
>> were able to spend five nights with them at the coast.  Where we stayed
> had
>> an excellent program for the kids so Glenn and Amy had a lot of free time
>
>> together and we adults even got to eat lunch and supper without the kids.
> It
>> was a wonderful time for all of us.  When we returned to Kijabe Jon and
> Melissa
>> and their three children joined us.  It was a bit hectic at times but we
>> enjoyed having the whole family together and the cousins enjoyed getting
> to know
>> each other and playing together.  Glenn and Amy are now full members of
> the
>> Association of Baptists for World Evangelism (ABWE).  Pray that their
> needed
>> support will be complete before their scheduled departure to return to S.
>
>> Africa on Sept. 23 [they had just arrived back in S Africa, and Glenn was
> able
>> to get to Kenya to spend the last few days with his Dad]. They are
> presently
>> in CA and will fly out of SanFransisco. Pray for Jon and Melissa  Jon has
> a
>> lot of added responsibilities with the missionary nurse having left and
> the
>> African nurse preparing to leave to become a pastor. [Jon and Melissa are
> AIM
>> missionaries in Tanzania, where Jon is a doctor.  Their family was able
> to get
>> to Kenya a few days ago to spend time with John.  And Paul, John???s
> twin, and
>> Phyliss Barnett flew to Kenya from PA a few days ago to be with them as
>> well].
>>
>> Last week we received some exciting, unexpected news.  Elaine has been
>> chosen as Alumnus of the Year for Philadelphia Biblical University!  She
> will be
>> honored October 3, 4. With shortness of notice and other circumstances
> she may
>> not be able to attend personally. [I know that if God wants me to be
> there,
>> He will provide all the needed things to take place to free me to attend,
>
>> which humanly I would love to do! - Elaine speaking] [John???s Memorial
> Service &
>> burial will be at Kijabe on Oct. 4 instead]
>
>> From July 14-28 we were with Jon and Melissa in Tanzania.  I did a lot of
>
>> projects around the house and Elaine had a lot of time to spend with the
>> grandchildren.  She also went on bird walks with Melissa.
>>
>> While in Tanzania I noticed a small lump.  On getting it checked out as
> soon
>> as we got back pathology reported lymphoma cells again.  CT scans in
> Nairobi
>> confirmed "activity" and I have received another chemo treatment.  Next
> one
>> is scheduled for September 8.  We are being told the lymphoma that I have
> is
>> not medically curable but that it is treatable.  The doctor is
> encouraging in
>> that he is reasonably sure that we can get the cancer into remission
> again.
>>
>>
>> Two days before I found out about the return of the cancer I was mulling
>> over this quote: "The purpose of our trials is not only to test our faith
> but
>> also to increase it, just as the mighty oak is tested by the storms as
> well as
>> strenghtened by them."  One friend suggested that my response to this
> illness
>> stems from a strong faith.  That is no doubt true of many of the "saints"
>
>> but my response stems from a faith that is growing. Adversity has a way
> of
>> doing that. The bottom line is still that God loves us and He is in
> control. None
>> of us know what the future holds. On July 15 one of our 2006 grads [Ben
>> Entwistle] died from complications of a rheumatic heart. He was 20 years
> old. I
>> am grateful for the years God has given and for Elaine who has stood
> beside me
>> for 40 years. God has been good through the years. Mungu asifiwe! (God be
>
>> praised or Praise the Lord)"
>>
>> We are also grateful for your continued prayers and the notes of
>> encouragement that we receive.     Looking up,
>> John and Elaine
>>
>>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
>
> End of ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 7
> **************************************** 



From heffling at whidbey.com  Sun Oct  5 23:41:35 2008
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:41:35 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 7
References: <mailman.601.1223144859.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <002401c92776$32429ba0$2102a8c0@Desktophp>

Gene,

Thanks for all you do to maintain this site. Is there any way it could be 
made to accomodate pictures? It would be so nice to be able to share 
pictures with each other...
Grace

Did any of you make it to Mark's wedding?

Blessings,
Grace 



From gener at search-institute.org  Mon Oct  6 04:54:21 2008
From: gener at search-institute.org (Gene Roehlkepartain)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:54:21 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <002401c92776$32429ba0$2102a8c0@Desktophp>
References: <mailman.601.1223144859.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
	<002401c92776$32429ba0$2102a8c0@Desktophp>
Message-ID: <1be738890810060354g3c2fe5ddvf8a2c3816eab839e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Grace,

I'm glad to maintain the listserv. Actually, the underlying
www.rvaalumni.org site is minimally managed by someone else, and they set
the parameters for what can and can't be on the list. (The site is fairly
automatic at this point, so each class that has a listserv self-maintains
it.) Larger files are not a problem for many of us with broadband internet
access. However, they become really problematic if people are using dial-up
or a less reliable internet service. Also larger files and attachments open
the door to more spam and viruses.

I think pictures are a cool idea to be able to see. I think they work
better, however, through a social networking vehicle like facebook rather
than a listserv. Janice set up a Facebook page for our class (RVA80), and it
does, in fact, have pictures. You can add others. So I'd recommend that
folks who want to see pictures, etc., join that group on Facebook.

Regarding Mark's wedding: it's on October 11. So there's still time to crash
his party.

Cheers,
Gene

-- 
Gene Roehlkepartain

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 12:41 AM, Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com> wrote:

> Gene,
>
> Thanks for all you do to maintain this site. Is there any way it could be
> made to accomodate pictures? It would be so nice to be able to share
> pictures with each other...
> Grace
>
> Did any of you make it to Mark's wedding?
>
> Blessings,
> Grace
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
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From heffling at whidbey.com  Mon Oct  6 13:29:55 2008
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:29:55 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 9
References: <mailman.3.1223316002.34762.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <001301c927e9$e99acf70$2102a8c0@Desktophp>

 Gene.,
 I forgot about the big picture. Thanks for the reminder. I'm just going to 
have to get Facebook!
Grace 



From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 12:49:02 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:49:02 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1223402402.82810.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.2.1223402402.82810.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810071149x44f9e308xb918cdeff73c4bcf@mail.gmail.com>

Can we have a setting that allows the individual user to receive attachments
or not?Kinda of like how you can get individual emails or larger combined
ones.
This would allow those with restricted bandwidth to have the option of
not receiving those larger photo pics, while allowing those with broadband
(or lots of time) to see attached photos.

I cant stand FaceBook. Its way to complicated. Took me 15 minutes the other
day to find my msgs! And I think I added (I clicked YES ADD to the question)
Steve&Jen. but for the life of me I can't find them in any friend list.

But then heaven help me, I have been carrying around for 3 days a B'Day card
because I cant find a Envelope, a Stamp and have no idea where to post the
thing when I do....I might just scan it in and email it.

I think I have ED....Electronic Dysfunctionality.
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From bwiru80 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  7 13:02:12 2008
From: bwiru80 at yahoo.com (Janice Dunkerton)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:02:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <3a6242f10810071149x44f9e308xb918cdeff73c4bcf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5230.2695.qm@web52909.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hey, Scott/Dan,
?
I just looked at your facebook and Steve and Jen are there - you goof !? What else can I help you with?? I am in the helping mood because I just "spoke harshly" yes, me I did - to a company that promised a shipment 2nd day and they aren't even shipping?til this week "maybe" so I need to be nice to someone-haha.
?
Janice
?


      
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From tory at trwengineering.com  Tue Oct  7 13:07:48 2008
From: tory at trwengineering.com (Tory Walker)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:07:48 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <3a6242f10810071149x44f9e308xb918cdeff73c4bcf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1223402402.82810.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
	<3a6242f10810071149x44f9e308xb918cdeff73c4bcf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d001c928af$fd283bb0$f778b310$@com>

Maybe the problem, Dan, is that you are in Florida and it is election season
again.

 

 

From: Daniel Amstutz [mailto:kewlbigdan at gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 11:49 AM
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 10

 

Can we have a setting that allows the individual user to receive attachments
or not?

Kinda of like how you can get individual emails or larger combined ones.

This would allow those with restricted bandwidth to have the option of not
receiving those larger photo pics, while allowing those with broadband (or
lots of time) to see attached photos.

 

I cant stand FaceBook. Its way to complicated. Took me 15 minutes the other
day to find my msgs! And I think I added (I clicked YES ADD to the question)
Steve&Jen. but for the life of me I can't find them in any friend list. 

 

But then heaven help me, I have been carrying around for 3 days a B'Day card
because I cant find a Envelope, a Stamp and have no idea where to post the
thing when I do....I might just scan it in and email it.

 

I think I have ED....Electronic Dysfunctionality.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1712 - Release Date: 10/7/2008
9:41 AM

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From bwiru80 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  7 12:54:39 2008
From: bwiru80 at yahoo.com (Janice Dunkerton)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <3a6242f10810071149x44f9e308xb918cdeff73c4bcf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <658.24486.qm@web52910.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hey, you are thinking way toooo hard on facebook.? Do I need to come down there and show you it????? I will bring chai!!
Janice

?


      
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From bwiru80 at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  7 13:12:17 2008
From: bwiru80 at yahoo.com (Janice Dunkerton)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:12:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <00d001c928af$fd283bb0$f778b310$@com>
Message-ID: <558531.11676.qm@web52901.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

HEY!!!!!?? I live here to - oh maybe I don't want to admit that I live in FloriDUH!!!!
?
Janice

?


      
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From bwanapc at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 07:32:19 2008
From: bwanapc at gmail.com (Jonathan Bainbridge)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:32:19 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <00d001c928af$fd283bb0$f778b310$@com>
References: <mailman.2.1223402402.82810.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
	<3a6242f10810071149x44f9e308xb918cdeff73c4bcf@mail.gmail.com>
	<00d001c928af$fd283bb0$f778b310$@com>
Message-ID: <e04aa3030810080632h595f50bag31d969e4bdd5b126@mail.gmail.com>

I'm never going back to Florida, they are so anti-Chad there. I have
never seen a state that is so biased against Chads. Some of my best
friends are named Chad, they... what's that ... Chad is the bit of
paper from a ... what ... never mind...

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:07 PM, Tory Walker <tory at trwengineering.com> wrote:
> Maybe the problem, Dan, is that you are in Florida and it is election season
> again.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Daniel Amstutz [mailto:kewlbigdan at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 11:49 AM
> To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 10
>
>
>
> Can we have a setting that allows the individual user to receive attachments
> or not?
>
> Kinda of like how you can get individual emails or larger combined ones.
>
> This would allow those with restricted bandwidth to have the option of
> not receiving those larger photo pics, while allowing those with broadband
> (or lots of time) to see attached photos.
>
>
>
> I cant stand FaceBook. Its way to complicated. Took me 15 minutes the other
> day to find my msgs! And I think I added (I clicked YES ADD to the question)
> Steve&Jen. but for the life of me I can't find them in any friend list.
>
>
>
> But then heaven help me, I have been carrying around for 3 days a B'Day card
> because I cant find a Envelope, a Stamp and have no idea where to post the
> thing when I do....I might just scan it in and email it.
>
>
>
> I think I have ED....Electronic Dysfunctionality.
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1712 - Release Date: 10/7/2008
> 9:41 AM
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
>


From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 12:21:18 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:21:18 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Marriage or not, that is the question.
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810081121n6f3f487o75007db2286a167@mail.gmail.com>

In the interest of Mark's impending union, be it bliss or doom, as the clock
winds down closer and closer, now that we are all over 40, except you
Norman, our last minute advice and views on "Marriage or not".
Obviously, all can join in the discussion, but frankly anyone's opinions
whose spouse also reads this list, will be viewed as biased and
non-subjective. I mean, will someone married, knowing their spouse is
reading this, say "I kinda still wish I was single". Of course if you write
that, then you probably would be shortly.

So to start this off, I've been married for 15 years now, (doesn't that just
sound old) and there have been times along the way where I wished I was
single again. When the kids are crying at 3 am, or you cant find a
babysitter and your friends are heading to the ball game, or you just get
tired of sharing the blankets. There are times I want to eat junk food and
not have someone who cares about me saying I shouldn't, or maybe walk out of
the house in un-ironed clothes, or even ignore the uncut grass till its up
to the window sill. There are times I just want to be able to turn my head
and watch that hot babe walk on past instead of staring straight ahead, and
go to the beach and be able to look around instead of the sand, or even go
into a store and not have to stop by the panties and bra department. Maybe
there is something for being able to flip between 4 sports channels without
stopping on HSN just to see what is on sale, or plan a vacation that
doesn't involve the Trolep Gardens, or actually have money in the bank!
There is a lot to be said about the idea of being single. It does sound
great.
But Bach'n it for these last three weeks while Lynda is in New Zealand with
her failing Grandmother, I've come to realize, just how much I miss all
those annoying things. (tho I have really enjoyed all those things above!!!)

I think Single People want to be married, and Married People just think they
want to be single.
So Mark, I give you a big THUMBs UP.
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From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 12:28:59 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:28:59 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6.1223488802.31044.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.6.1223488802.31044.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810081128h4430c201ub74e54ba5a76815f@mail.gmail.com>

Its not that we like Hanging Chads, But they are supposed to fall out after
we punch them!
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From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 12:40:27 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:40:27 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <3a6242f10810081128h4430c201ub74e54ba5a76815f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6.1223488802.31044.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
	<3a6242f10810081128h4430c201ub74e54ba5a76815f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810081140q466c32b4ua04ea2a7718df701@mail.gmail.com>

But Janice,  They WILL ship 2nd day!!  just wont be till next week, or maybe
the following week...or maybe thursday after Thanksgiving, but it
will definitely be 2nd day ship!

"Spoke Harshly"...what a riot. I can just see you saying "not till next
week? Well Gosh Darn it! That wont do, just wont do at all."
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  8 13:13:18 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:13:18 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1223488802.31044.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.7.1223488802.31044.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W48941A60B8891E20BE7D40883B0@phx.gbl>


aniel:  Sounds like your getting beat up bud- I am in the same boat with you....do not know nothing about Facebook or any type of books as a matter of fact- I am just knee high in dirty laundry over here. 
 
And don't take an lip about Florida. Its where the old people go.. You and Janice have a head start. 
 
Just kidding Janice...haha. steve
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Thu Oct  9 02:14:39 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:14:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Marriage or not, that is the question.
Message-ID: <741163.60914.qm@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you Daniel for your kind words.  I've been single a long time and I have to say I am really excited about changing that status.  It seems very hard to put a good relationship together but doing so seems worth it.  Of  course, what do I know - I am on this side of it.

I wonder at the silence of the rest of the class.  Come on, I welcome your input, advice, sage stories, etc.  Perhaps too many people share email accounts.  

Mark



----- Original Message ----
From: Daniel Amstutz <kewlbigdan at gmail.com>
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 1:21:18 PM
Subject: [ClassOf80] Marriage or not, that is the question.


In the interest of Mark's impending union, be it bliss or doom, as the clock winds down closer and closer, now that we are all over 40, except you Norman, our last minute advice and views on "Marriage or not".

Obviously, all can join in the discussion, but frankly anyone's opinions whose spouse also reads this list, will be viewed as biased and non-subjective. I mean, will someone married, knowing their spouse is reading this, say "I kinda still wish I was single". Of course if you write that, then you probably would be shortly.

So to start this off, I've been married for 15 years now, (doesn't that just sound old) and there have been times along the way where I wished I was single again. When the kids are crying at 3 am, or you cant find a babysitter and your friends are heading to the ball game, or you just get tired of sharing the blankets. There are times I want to eat junk food and not have someone who cares about me saying I shouldn't, or maybe walk out of the house in un-ironed clothes, or even ignore the uncut grass till its up to the window sill. There are times I just want to be able to turn my head and watch that hot babe walk on past instead of staring straight ahead, and go to the beach and be able to look around instead of the sand, or even go into a store and not have to stop by the panties and bra department. Maybe there is something for being able to flip between 4 sports channels without stopping on HSN just to see what is on sale, or plan a vacation that
 doesn't involve the Trolep Gardens, or actually have money in the bank!
There is a lot to be said about the idea of being single. It does sound great. 
But Bach'n it for these last three weeks while Lynda is in New Zealand with her failing Grandmother, I've come to realize, just how much I miss all those annoying things. (tho I have really enjoyed all those things above!!!)

I think Single People want to be married, and Married People just think they want to be single.
So Mark, I give you a big THUMBs UP.
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From mmjohnson5 at msn.com  Thu Oct  9 08:34:36 2008
From: mmjohnson5 at msn.com (Marie Johnson)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:34:36 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] marriage
Message-ID: <BAY112-DS2A7DF0A4AF5B960DCBB1F813A0@phx.gbl>

Mark 
I have a few thoughts on marriage. Well 1st off I loved it so much that I did it 2 times! Eighteen years the 1st time and this time almost 7 and going strong. And I know that everyone thinks that there is a right or a wrong age. My family has a lot members who married their high school sweethearts and are still married. And a few that got married in their 30's and 40's that stayed married until death. I believe it is about commitment to each other. And putting God in the relationship! Selfness can kill a marriage. Making the choice to only have eyes for her and loving her in all season of your life together. I know that you have seen all this , but now you are going to be living  it. And  sometimes that hard. I know that I am blessed to have Allen in my life and I don't let myself for get it. Just a few more days and I know that you can't wait. Oh, by the way Saturday is my B-day too! what a great day to get married! 
May God bless this marriage
Marie
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From jennyishome at austin.rr.com  Thu Oct  9 12:08:11 2008
From: jennyishome at austin.rr.com (Jenny Holloway)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:08:11 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] MARRIAGE
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1223575201.77611.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.3.1223575201.77611.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <68BBAB9D19594EFF8EE1A7BB847F4538@gijenn34PC>

Even though just an in-law to this group, finally a topic I can get into. 
hahah Now you all know Steve right?? hahahhah No seriously, he is and has 
been an amazing husband and a wonderful father to our son. There will always 
be things that we fight about but that is to me what keeps it alive and 
kickin! The main thing is that at the end of the day we are still in love 
and still commited to spend our lives together. Oh and if we do go to bed 
mad, I just torture him through the night. hahah We do often dream of our 
Golden years too and I think keeping that focus takes us off the here and 
now at times which helps. Life is tough and no two ways about that but I 
can't even dream of a better person than to walk through life with. Of 
course for us we do honeymoon alot being apart as much as we are but also we 
only have communication for the majority of the year and have learned so 
much about each other this way. So Mark I am totally in favor of marriage 
and I had a terrible first one and still believed in Steve enough to try it 
again and 12 years later could not think of anywhere else I would like to 
be. Just close your eyes and have a leap of faith and jump! It is a blast.
HUGS
Jenny
Jenny and Steve Holloway

http://www.mymangosteen.com/distributors/jholloway/

I am a princess... my Father is the King of Kings!

Stop telling God how big your storm is.......instead
tell your storm HOW BIG YOUR GOD IS!!!!!!!!!! 



From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 12:12:02 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:12:02 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1223575201.77611.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.2.1223575201.77611.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810091112w3be2bad7y4d7609b0819e3745@mail.gmail.com>

And don't take an lip about Florida. Its where the old people go.. You and
Janice have a head start.
 Just kidding Janice...haha.

HEY HEY WHAT ABOUT ME????
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From bwiru80 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  9 12:10:02 2008
From: bwiru80 at yahoo.com (Janice Dunkerton)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <3a6242f10810081140q466c32b4ua04ea2a7718df701@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <783179.89679.qm@web52906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Well, I am still laughing Dan - you are too funny.? Hey, I can get my point across with a smile - they don't have to know what I am really thinking!? HAHA!
?
Janice


      
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Thu Oct  9 16:21:07 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:21:07 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1223575201.77611.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.3.1223575201.77611.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W348436F6CF6ABA38C0A63D883A0@phx.gbl>


Mark:Just keep your wife away from certain programs on T.V (dancing with the Stars)... mine started watching it now and wants me to go to dance lessons when I get home. Good grief it looks I am staying in Iraq for many more years so she can get that idea out of her head.
 
Other things - 1. don't forget ya'll anniversary
                    2. her birthday
                    3. valentines
                    4. dates- be on time regardless if she is always late
                    5. compliment her on how buetiful she is
                    6. Fill up her tank for no reason/ wash her vehicle
                    7. help with cooking/dishes/ garbage take out..
 
and I could go on and on....Just remember the little things matter to women. Have a great wedding and honeymoon. steve
_________________________________________________________________
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
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From jgarmes at msn.com  Thu Oct  9 17:18:06 2008
From: jgarmes at msn.com (John Armes)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:18:06 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W348436F6CF6ABA38C0A63D883A0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.3.1223575201.77611.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
	<BAY112-W348436F6CF6ABA38C0A63D883A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU134-DAV53ABBAAB7B99EA23DDBF2A03A0@phx.gbl>

> I might add,
  should you forget these two items, take heart,  you'll only forget  
once!

> Other things - 1. don't forget ya'll anniversary
>                     2. her birthday
>
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From Swissmiss at compuserve.com  Fri Oct 10 08:47:35 2008
From: Swissmiss at compuserve.com (Nancy Maillefer)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:47:35 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] hotel
Message-ID: <200810101047_MC3-2-135A-8E5E@compuserve.com>

Jon & Lynda,

Do you know of any hotels, interesting or nice places somewhere between St.
Louis and Kansas City to stay or visit?  I will get somewhere over there on
Wed. on my way to Wichita?

I'm a bit worried about my car being broken into but am trying to pack so
nothing looks too tempting. Depending on when I get started, I may not even
get to St. Louis. We'll see.

Nancy


From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Fri Oct 10 12:18:42 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:18:42 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <mailman.8.1223661602.23323.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.8.1223661602.23323.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810101118g6bd6efe0pf1da10ba46a747dc@mail.gmail.com>

Nancy; Just put an Obama sticker on your car, and no one will touch it.
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Fri Oct 10 12:50:10 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:50:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 13
Message-ID: <263190.96947.qm@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I assume you mean that even hardened car thieves can recognize a person with good values and will leave them alone.





----- Original Message ----
From: Daniel Amstutz <kewlbigdan at gmail.com>
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 1:18:42 PM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 13



Nancy; Just put an Obama sticker on your car, and no one will touch it.
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 10 19:52:16 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <263190.96947.qm@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <653399.36888.qm@web34708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


HEY MARK tomorrow's your pivotal life changing day huh...  
last chance to give you some priceless advice while you're still a virgin, huh?
 
i think anything i say you can turn around backwards and might do better but here's my advice. 

a nurse dropped this bomb in the o.r. today, saying that mothers cookies is going out of business.     
i say "adopt" if you want to raise kids in such times.   
they said the animal cookies with sprinkles can be frozen.  
but still...   consider pets.

have a wonderful day tomorrow.   -  julie











      


From lbainbridge at avmi.org  Fri Oct 10 21:42:12 2008
From: lbainbridge at avmi.org (Bainbridge, Lynda)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:42:12 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] hotel -
In-Reply-To: <200810101047_MC3-2-135A-8E5E@compuserve.com>
References: <200810101047_MC3-2-135A-8E5E@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <14EF2ED28257BC499340D71BC5E93A8D223FB2@exchangesrv1.us.gmu.org>

Hi Nancy,

Sorry not to get back to you earlier in the day.  If you make it to St.
Louis, I would definitely keep heading west and stay nearer to the
airport if that is as far as you get that day.  If you get further
Columbia, MO is right off the highway (a college town), but relatively
safe and about half-way between St. Louis and Kansas City.

I'm not sure what your schedule is, but we would love to at least have
you over for lunch or something on your way through; you would be
welcome to spend the night, but it sounds like that won't work
time-wise, but please let us know.  

We are heading out of town in the AM for a wedding (no not Mark's) - for
those of you that know Jon's older brother, Matt - his youngest daughter
Amanda is getting married on Sunday in Minneapolis. But, you just still
e-mail us.  If you do decide to book a hotel somewhere, I can get you a
good rate with my travel web site.

Take care and hope to see you soon even if it is a quick visit.

Lynda 

-----Original Message-----

Jon & Lynda,

Do you know of any hotels, interesting or nice places somewhere between
St.
Louis and Kansas City to stay or visit?  I will get somewhere over there
on
Wed. on my way to Wichita?

I'm a bit worried about my car being broken into but am trying to pack
so
nothing looks too tempting. Depending on when I get started, I may not
even
get to St. Louis. We'll see.

Nancy



From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Fri Oct 10 21:57:27 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fw: wedding advice
Message-ID: <963104.65293.qm@web83104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Oops.  I meant to send this to the whole list and only sent it to Julie.  Sorry.



----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
To: lindholmsi at yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:55:50 PM
Subject: wedding advice


Yes everyone.  Tomorrow is the big day.  Thank you all for your words of wisdom, encouragement, humor and other over the past weeks.  I am excited.  I'm going to be spending the rest of my life with a wonderful woman.  Sunday night we fly out for Boston and then drive up to Bar Harbor Maine for the next week on Monday.  Hopefully the fall colors will bless us with a spectacular display.

As far as kids and adopting go Julie, I think we are most likely to go the pet route, then adopting and if anything else happens it will be a big oops.  We had a cookout tonight at the house for all of the out of town guests and relatives and one of my uncles asked if it was going to be a full moon tomorrow (it looked pretty big tonight) saying that it meant you would have more children if you got married with a full moon.  My response was that we can have four or five times as many as we are planning and that will be  fine.  We've got lovely nieces and nephews and the neighbors have a wonderful dog who loves us and we get to babysit on occasion.

Somebody keep the minority opinion burning while I am away.

Mark




      

_______________________________________________
ClassOf80 mailing list
ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
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From Swissmiss at compuserve.com  Fri Oct 10 22:38:27 2008
From: Swissmiss at compuserve.com (Nancy Maillefer)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:38:27 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80]  Fw: wedding advice
Message-ID: <200810110038_MC3-2-1364-FDED@compuserve.com>

Mark,

My advice, as the single person left - what in the world are you talking to
US for on the night before??? 

And why weren't we invited or did you have to be on facebook to get it??   
 :) 

Anyway, Enjoy the event, ......... if you are still reading this the day
of!!!  :)  If you're still up, go to sleep..........!!!

Nancy  ;)


From brown.deanna at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 11 05:34:07 2008
From: brown.deanna at yahoo.com (Deanna Brown)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 04:34:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] missionary reuion
Message-ID: <997250.20222.qm@web45608.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Went to a reunion not far from my house for Southern Baptist missionaries from East Africa. I will be uploading pictures on facebook, but thought I would mention a few who are important to this group. 

Marie, your parents look great, and were a pleasure to talk to. They must be some of the youngest, or at least the most well preserved of the group. 

Andy Jones (are you on this list?) I enjoyed reliving that first trip to Tukuyu to join us for Christmas with your dad. I had forgotten that you lost Eucled's guitar along the way. I can't imagine how desperate for?a familar face?your mom and dad must have been to load up that little car and drive 1000 miles over mostly dirt roads to come see us after having only been in Kenya for 6 months, having little understanding of swahili, and no landrover. I told your parents to start working on you to come to the 2010 reunion. Would love to see you.

Gene, your mom recognised me right away and gave me a big hug. I visited with your dad, and told him how much I have enjoyed being in touch with all three Partain boys this year. He told me you would be going back for your phd soon and, by the way, he is very proud of all you have accomplished. 

I got there just in time to see Uncle Glenn Boyd perform "Moses" I don't think Becky is on this list anymore, so I won't go on and on about how much I am thankful for her parents, but I did think many of you would remember what a great performer Glenn is.

Steve Holloway, your mom told me about all her kids, but the one she spoke of most was you. She keeps her phone right by her until you call every day. I don't think you have any idea what those calls mean to her. She told me what a wonderful son you are, as well as how sweet your wife is. Good job, man.
?
Carol Ennis's folks were there and told me she is working in Cleburne!? Just 20 minutes from me. I had no idea she was so close.
?
Betty Whitson saw me right before supper and said,"Scott and Drew will be here in time for supper" I said, "Drew?!!!" and she said, "Oh sorry, I meant Leslie (Scott's wife)". It was good to see?Scott, and he did a great job preaching for the whole crowd after supper. 
?
I saw Betty Bedenbaugh, who came with Robin, but I didn't get a chance to talk to her much. She evidently has cancer (so does Robin according to my mom), and I think that she went to her room between sessions, because I could never find her to talk at length.
?
I hope I haven't missed anyone. I was overwhelmed with the amount of love and affection that was poured out on the handful of MK's that showed up. We were treated like royalty. I was reminded again how much these people are my family. Wish you all could have been there too. D



      



From brown.deanna at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 11 07:13:54 2008
From: brown.deanna at yahoo.com (Deanna Brown)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:13:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] OOps forgot!
Message-ID: <623191.62798.qm@web45605.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Laura Hampton's dad was there too, looking just the same as ever. And the Blakelys came with boxes of Tanzania tea and instant coffee. We love them! Pictures are uploaded. d


      



From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 11 08:21:34 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:21:34 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] OOps forgot!
In-Reply-To: <623191.62798.qm@web45605.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <623191.62798.qm@web45605.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W145C288381A54F4BE79EBA7340@phx.gbl>

Thanks Deanna for all those updates.  That was fun to hear/read!  I'm off to see the pics on Facebook.  Where is Laura Hampton?  I've looked for her on Facebook.  I found Kenny and I found Lisa but I can't find Laura.
 
Congratulations on your big day Mark!  I hope it's all wonderful and memorable.  I understand completely being online the night before... just would NOT understand the night after!  :) 
 
Nancy... we're not invited because he's afraid it would wind up a big Obama/Mama debate!  (Just kidding.)  Be safe as you travel.  I love Dan's advice on the bumper sticker.  Two points have been awarded to his scoreboard on that one!
 
_________________________________________________________________
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
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From joyce_maxwell at comcast.net  Sat Oct 11 08:20:41 2008
From: joyce_maxwell at comcast.net (Joyce Maxwell)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:20:41 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fw: wedding advice
In-Reply-To: <963104.65293.qm@web83104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <963104.65293.qm@web83104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BDC6026904AB49618013489FCDE35A93@MimituPC>

Mark, about the minority opinion--it may not actually be the minority opinion, but you have been very capable of articulating what I would call the left-of-center viewpoint. You had the time and passion to do so. We'll miss your voice while you are gone. BUT, we don't want to hear from you while you are on your honeymoon. You have more important things to do this next week and checking up on e-mail can be left for later. Congratulations on your marriage. 

Joyce
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
  Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:55:50 PM
  Subject: wedding advice


  Yes everyone.  Tomorrow is the big day.  Thank you all for your words of wisdom, encouragement, humor and other over the past weeks.  I am excited.  I'm going to be spending the rest of my life with a wonderful woman.  Sunday night we fly out for Boston and then drive up to Bar Harbor Maine for the next week on Monday.  Hopefully the fall colors will bless us with a spectacular display.

  As far as kids and adopting go Julie, I think we are most likely to go the pet route, then adopting and if anything else happens it will be a big oops.  We had a cookout tonight at the house for all of the out of town guests and relatives and one of my uncles asked if it was going to be a full moon tomorrow (it looked pretty big tonight) saying that it meant you would have more children if you got married with a full moon.  My response was that we can have four or five times as many as we are planning and that will be  fine.  We've got lovely nieces and nephews and the neighbors have a wonderful dog who loves us and we get to babysit on occasion.

  Somebody keep the minority opinion burning while I am away.

  Mark
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From brown.deanna at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 11 08:27:12 2008
From: brown.deanna at yahoo.com (Deanna Brown)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 07:27:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Laura
Message-ID: <549977.21383.qm@web45603.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Mel, if you message Kenny on facebook, Laura might answer you! She did me. She had some pretty serious medical problems last year, but is doing well now. D


      



From energynorm at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 11 21:28:00 2008
From: energynorm at yahoo.com (Stormin' Norman)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:28:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fw: wedding advice
In-Reply-To: <BDC6026904AB49618013489FCDE35A93@MimituPC>
Message-ID: <32956.83433.qm@web34801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Congrats Mark!
We wish you and yours a delightful blissful marriage.
With all the advice from the class, you can't go wrong!
Enjoy the peace and serenity of Americana in New England.
- Norm

--- On Sat, 10/11/08, Joyce Maxwell <joyce_maxwell at comcast.net> wrote:

From: Joyce Maxwell <joyce_maxwell at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Fw: wedding advice
To: "RVA class of '80" <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 9:20 AM



#yiv726735211 DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}


Mark, about the minority opinion--it may not actually be the minority opinion, but you have been very capable of articulating what I would call the left-of-center viewpoint. You had the time and passion to do so. We'll miss your voice while you are gone. BUT, we don't want to hear from you while you are on your honeymoon. You have more important things to do this next week and checking up on e-mail can be left for later. Congratulations on your marriage. 
?
Joyce

----- Original Message ----- 


From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:55:50 PM
Subject: wedding advice


Yes everyone.? Tomorrow is the big day.? Thank you all for your words of wisdom, encouragement, humor and other over the past weeks.? I am excited.? I'm going to be spending the rest of my life with a wonderful woman.? Sunday night we fly out for Boston and then drive up to Bar Harbor Maine for the next week on Monday.? Hopefully the fall colors will bless us with a spectacular display.

As far as kids and adopting go Julie, I think we are most likely to go the pet route, then adopting and if anything else happens it will be a big oops.? We had a cookout tonight at the house for all of the out of town guests and relatives and one of my uncles asked if it was going to be a full moon tomorrow (it looked pretty big tonight) saying that it meant you would have more children if you got married with a full moon.? My response was that we can have four or five times as many as we are planning and that will be? fine.? We've got lovely nieces and nephews and the neighbors have a wonderful dog who loves us and we get to babysit on occasion.

Somebody keep the minority opinion burning while I am away.

Mark_______________________________________________
ClassOf80 mailing list
ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
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From Swissmiss at compuserve.com  Sun Oct 12 15:50:30 2008
From: Swissmiss at compuserve.com (Nancy Maillefer)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:50:30 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] obama
Message-ID: <200810121750_MC3-2-133E-666E@compuserve.com>

Hi,

Even tho' I don't want to encourage the continuation of political debate,
this was sent to me yesterday, if you're interested. I'll see if I get to
watching it while I pack.

nancy



IMPORTANT INFORMATION!!
It comes on at 8:00 PM central time on Sunday.


SEAN HANNITY, OF  HANNITY & COLMES ~ FOX NEWS, IS GOING TO AIR A VERY
IMPORTANT DOCUMENTARY ABOUT BARACK OBAMA, SUNDAY NIGHT  AT 9:00 PM.


From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Mon Oct 13 08:49:06 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (Daniel Amstutz)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:49:06 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Trip to NZ
Message-ID: <3a6242f10810130749scd915e1gb1085a924db2187@mail.gmail.com>

Well, we are within 24 hours of leaving for New Zealand.I wont be on for the
next 3 weeks.
Go luck and have fun.
God bless

Thank goodness I wont have to listen to anymore Election Coverage!!!!

Hey, Steve, My sister Peggy, is going to marry the CEO of a security firm in
Kuwait. I dont know the name of it, but they employ ex SAS, Special forces
guys and provide security to bigwigs in Iraq/Kuwait. She is going to move to
Kuwait next year in Feb. Maybe you could drop by and see her or something.
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From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 13 08:59:36 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:59:36 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Trip to NZ
In-Reply-To: <3a6242f10810130749scd915e1gb1085a924db2187@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a6242f10810130749scd915e1gb1085a924db2187@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W5245A1B6B63EF572965B77A7360@phx.gbl>

Dan... Did you vote early?  Did you push the chad all the way through?  I sure hope so!  If not, the democrats will vote on your behalf and often!  They just discovered thousands of votes here in Texas that upon investigation were actually cast by dead people... who miraculously all voted democratic.  Be careful as you travel!  Congrats to Peggy!  The girl lives life large, doesn't she?!?   Good for her!

 
_________________________________________________________________
Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 13 12:53:34 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:53:34 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 17
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1223920801.41982.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.5.1223920801.41982.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W54A32FD300F0B08A98267888360@phx.gbl>


Mel: Old news about what the other party does to get votes...They keep on doing that year after year... Seems to me we would have a better system in and make each person come in and vote in person...They would need 3 forms verifying they are citizens and after the election have a 3 week period to verify the votes....None of this one day after knowing who won.  Make those who commit fraud pay a heavy fine.... Then you'd see all the illegals not voting... 
 
Daniel; Congrats to Peggy and would love to go stop by but Kuwait is not on my way to the house...I go thru Dubai. 
_________________________________________________________________
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From lbainbridge at avmi.org  Mon Oct 13 20:39:08 2008
From: lbainbridge at avmi.org (Bainbridge, Lynda)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:39:08 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Trip to NZ
In-Reply-To: <3a6242f10810130749scd915e1gb1085a924db2187@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a6242f10810130749scd915e1gb1085a924db2187@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14EF2ED28257BC499340D71BC5E93A8D223FB5@exchangesrv1.us.gmu.org>

Have a great time.  I am assuming from your note to Steve that you are
going to Peggy's wedding.  How are Lynda and her family doing?  I hope
all is OK.

 

I have to say I am very jealous - I would love an excuse (and the money
and the time . . . . . . . .etc.) to go to New Zealand again.

 

How does Peggy meet these men???  Now you'll have an excuse to go to
Kuwait.

 

We'll miss you. But I'm sure you'll be back in full force with lots to
say on your return. :-)  BTW, I never responded to your comment that I
made Jon write his missive - had nothing to do with it - he was at work.
I probably didn't read it until after you did.

 

 

________________________________

From: Daniel Amstutz



Well, we are within 24 hours of leaving for New Zealand.

I wont be on for the next 3 weeks.

Go luck and have fun.

God bless

 

Thank goodness I wont have to listen to anymore Election Coverage!!!!

 

Hey, Steve, My sister Peggy, is going to marry the CEO of a security
firm in Kuwait. I dont know the name of it, but they employ ex SAS,
Special forces guys and provide security to bigwigs in Iraq/Kuwait. She
is going to move to Kuwait next year in Feb. Maybe you could drop by and
see her or something.

 

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From mmjohnson5 at msn.com  Tue Oct 14 08:11:57 2008
From: mmjohnson5 at msn.com (Marie Johnson)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:11:57 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Thanks
Message-ID: <BAY112-DS6B2B95F25AD45D133FB8D81310@phx.gbl>

Deanna, 
I talked to Mom on Saturday and she told me that you were there, they had a great time too. I sent your e-mail to them, I know that it will make their day. Allen and I will be spending the day at the fair tomorrow with them and will catch up more. I would have Loved to hear Uncle Glenn sing he has a wonderful voice. Thanks for sharing.
Marie
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 15 15:02:39 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:02:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] obama
In-Reply-To: <200810121750_MC3-2-133E-666E@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <978063.89578.qm@web34706.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

HELLOOO NANCY,  can you tell us what it showed?  
i didnt get to watch the documentary.


i did hear on NPR that this full moon (HARVEST MOON), is the longest all-night and brightest full moon lasting several days, in both northern and southern hemispheres.  
it has been awesome to see it on this landscape.

tory i hate to ask again...but  you're not in the fires again are you?  i think you live south of LA but then hearing about the difficulties  evacuating horses and i thought about you guys again.  greg you out there too?

heidi what are you guys doing on your harleys... because you havent come to see us yet.

amstutz i doubt you'll get much of a break from u.s. politics since the whole world is not bored by our latest political antics.  
just more concerned about the growing sound of pensions flushing worldwide.  
betcha aussies are for obama.  
stick that in your pipe 'n smoke it, huh.  
all of my european and asian patients wish they could vote.  

you guys better all, all, get out there and vote already! 

PS it's not rome dominating powerless tribes anymore... 
giving to ceaser in '08 means ya gotta vote. 

oh, yeah -

-  obama ya'll 

- julie






 




      


From tory at trwengineering.com  Thu Oct 16 15:00:02 2008
From: tory at trwengineering.com (Tory Walker)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:00:02 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] fires
Message-ID: <006a01c92fd2$2a626960$7f273c20$@com>

Julie, thanks for asking.  There was another Fallbrook fire, this time at
the other side of town on Camp Pendleton, the Marine base.  Thank God no
houses were burned.  The whole area is very dry again after another drought
year.  There were some evacuations, but it fortunately was relatively minor.
The fire agencies were much better prepared this time and jumped all over
it.

 

Tory

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 19 10:51:26 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:51:26 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country,
 he hit the nail on th...
Message-ID: <BAY112-W49DF09EBECBF4131B8D227882C0@phx.gbl>




 
David Letterman wrote this; it's the David we don't often see...  As most of you know I am not a President Bush fan, nor have I ever been, but this is not about Bush, it is about us, as Americans, and it seems to hit the mark 'The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some Poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true given the source, right? The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the President. In essence 2/3 of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change. So being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking, 'What are we so unhappy about?''  A.. Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 Days a week?  B.. Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter?  C.. Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job?  D.. Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time and see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?  E.. Maybe it is the ability to drive our cars and trucks from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification papers as we move through each state?  F.. Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way that can provide temporary shelter?  G.. I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough either.  H. Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and provide services to help all and even send a helicopter to take you to the hospital.  I.. Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home.  J.. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to extinguish the flames, thus saving you, our family, and your belongings.  K.. Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss  L.. This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90% of teenagers own cell phones and computers.  M.. How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world?  Maybe that is what has 67% of you folks unhappy.  Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S. , yet has a great disdain for its citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have, and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here. 
 
I know, I know. What about the president who took us into war and has no plan to get us out? The president who has a measly 31 percent approval rating? Is this the same president who guided the nation in the dark days after 9/11? The president that cut taxes to bring an economy out of recession? Could this be the same guy who has been called every name in the book for succeeding in keeping all the spoiled ungrateful brats safe from terrorist attacks? The commander in chief of an all-volunteer army that is out there defending you and me?  Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this news affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for yourself and see all the good things and be glad? Think about it......are you upset at the President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it because the 'Media' told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful behind every day. Make no mistake about it.  The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to go. They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' discharge, an 'other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a ''dishonorable' ' discharge after a few days in the brig.  So why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of Americans?  Say what you want but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds it leads and they specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and guts How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what sells, and when criticized, try to defend their actions by 'justifying' them in one way or another Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer like O.J. Simpson to write a book about how he didn't kill his wife, but if he did he would have done it this way......Insane!  Turn off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of your bird cage. Then start being grateful for all we have as country. There is exponentially more good than bad. We are among the most blessed people on Earth and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful and appreciative.' 'With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, 'Are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?' 
David Letterman  Please keep this in circulation. There are so many people who need to read This 

***** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE *****This email may contain IAP Worldwide Services trade secrets and/or proprietary information. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copying of this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email and attachments, if any, from your system.***** DISCLAIMER NOTICE *****Any opinions stated in this email are those solely of the author and do not necessarily represent those of IAP Worldwide Services and/or its affiliates.


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From joyce_maxwell at comcast.net  Sun Oct 19 11:16:55 2008
From: joyce_maxwell at comcast.net (Joyce Maxwell)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:16:55 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country,
	he hit the nail on th...
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W49DF09EBECBF4131B8D227882C0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY112-W49DF09EBECBF4131B8D227882C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5096C1DE7D424F7798CE7C65FA37DBE6@MimituPC>

This is from David Letterman? How can you tell? I found several copies of it online, but one was anonymous and the other was signed "Jay Leno" with the email address jacrit at aol.com.  

That aside, this really makes a good point. Our fortune or misfortune is all relative, really. How well we are doing is defined by who we are comparing ourselves with, and on what basis. I was so lucky that growing up as an MK, in a family that really was financially poor, my parents chose to dwell instead on how rich we were in relationships and experiences. We truly felt that as a part of God's family we were rich in caring, supportive relationships that extended across the world. 

And not only that, having grown up in places where we DIDN'T have all the things in the list below, we are strong in knowing that happiness doesn't necessarily depend on having 24-hour electricity and running water or well-stocked grocery stores, or a house in the suburbs. 

-Joyce
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stephen M H 
  To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org 
  Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 12:51 PM
  Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country, he hit the nail on th...



  David Letterman wrote this; it's the David we don't often see... 
   
  As most of you know I am not a President Bush fan, nor have I ever been, but this is not about Bush, it is about us, as Americans, and it seems to hit the mark 'The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some Poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true given the source, right? The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the President. In essence 2/3 of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change. So being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking, 'What are we so unhappy about?'' 
   
  A.. Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 Days a week? 
   
  B.. Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter? 
   
  C.. Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job? 
   
  D.. Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time and see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year? 
   
  E.. Maybe it is the ability to drive our cars and trucks from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification papers as we move through each state? 
   
  F.. Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way that can provide temporary shelter? 
   
  G.. I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough either. 
   
  H. Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and provide services to help all and even send a helicopter to take you to the hospital. 
   
  I.. Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home. 
   
  J.. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to extinguish the flames, thus saving you, our family, and your belongings. 
   
  K.. Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss 
   
  L.. This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90% of teenagers own cell phones and computers. 
   
  M.. How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world? 
   
  Maybe that is what has 67% of you folks unhappy. 
   
  Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S. , yet has a great disdain for its citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have, and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here. 

  I know, I know. What about the president who took us into war and has no plan to get us out? The president who has a measly 31 percent approval rating? Is this the same president who guided the nation in the dark days after 9/11? The president that cut taxes to bring an economy out of recession? Could this be the same guy who has been called every name in the book for succeeding in keeping all the spoiled ungrateful brats safe from terrorist attacks? The commander in chief of an all-volunteer army that is out there defending you and me? 
   
  Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this news affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for yourself and see all the good things and be glad? Think about it......are you upset at the President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it because the 'Media' told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful behind every day. Make no mistake about it. 
   
  The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to go. They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' discharge, an 'other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a ''dishonorable' ' discharge after a few days in the brig. 
   
  So why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of Americans? 
   
  Say what you want but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds it leads and they specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and guts How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what sells, and when criticized, try to defend their actions by 'justifying' them in one way or another Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer like O.J. Simpson to write a book about how he didn't kill his wife, but if he did he would have done it this way......Insane! 
   
  Turn off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of your bird cage. Then start being grateful for all we have as country. There is exponentially more good than bad. We are among the most blessed people on Earth and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful and appreciative.' 'With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, 'Are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?' 

  David Letterman 
   
  Please keep this in circulation. There are so many people who need to read This 


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From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 19 12:31:35 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:31:35 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country,
	he hit the nail on th...
In-Reply-To: <5096C1DE7D424F7798CE7C65FA37DBE6@MimituPC>
References: <BAY112-W49DF09EBECBF4131B8D227882C0@phx.gbl>
	<5096C1DE7D424F7798CE7C65FA37DBE6@MimituPC>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W5650E865B4D633BD288FFEA72C0@phx.gbl>

This is actually by Craig R. Smith and was published in WorldNet News in 2006.   It started across the web for over a year as coming from Jay Leno.  Everytime my mom got it from a friend over email she became a Jay Leno fan.  He didn't write it.   For some reason this year they changed the author to David Letterman.  Not sure why people do things like that on the web.  But yes, it is a good essay.  And while I agree happiness doesn't depend on 24 hour electricity and running water, I am fairly addicted to those things now.  After Ike we didn't have either for a while... or phones, or groceries stores and life was a challenge there for a while.  We missed electricity the most in the sweltering heat with no air.  :)  I'm very, very grateful for the 24 hours electricity part of my life!

From: joyce_maxwell at comcast.netTo: classof80 at rvaalumni.orgDate: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:16:55 -0400Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country, he hit the nail on th...



This is from David Letterman? How can you tell? I found several copies of it online, but one was anonymous and the other was signed "Jay Leno" with the email address jacrit at aol.com.  
 
That aside, this really makes a good point. Our fortune or misfortune is all relative, really. How well we are doing is defined by who we are comparing ourselves with, and on what basis. I was so lucky that growing up as an MK, in a family that really was financially poor, my parents chose to dwell instead on how rich we were in relationships and experiences. We truly felt that as a part of God's family we were rich in caring, supportive relationships that extended across the world. 
 
And not only that, having grown up in places where we DIDN'T have all the things in the list below, we are strong in knowing that happiness doesn't necessarily depend on having 24-hour electricity and running water or well-stocked grocery stores, or a house in the suburbs. 
 
-Joyce

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Stephen M H 
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org 
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country, he hit the nail on th...



 
David Letterman wrote this; it's the David we don't often see...  As most of you know I am not a President Bush fan, nor have I ever been, but this is not about Bush, it is about us, as Americans, and it seems to hit the mark 'The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some Poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true given the source, right? The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the President. In essence 2/3 of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change. So being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking, 'What are we so unhappy about?''  A.. Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 Days a week?  B.. Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter?  C.. Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job?  D.. Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time and see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?  E.. Maybe it is the ability to drive our cars and trucks from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification papers as we move through each state?  F.. Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way that can provide temporary shelter?  G.. I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough either.  H. Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and provide services to help all and even send a helicopter to take you to the hospital.  I.. Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home.  J.. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to extinguish the flames, thus saving you, our family, and your belongings.  K.. Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss  L.. This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90% of teenagers own cell phones and computers.  M.. How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world?  Maybe that is what has 67% of you folks unhappy.  Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S. , yet has a great disdain for its citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have, and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here. 
 
I know, I know. What about the president who took us into war and has no plan to get us out? The president who has a measly 31 percent approval rating? Is this the same president who guided the nation in the dark days after 9/11? The president that cut taxes to bring an economy out of recession? Could this be the same guy who has been called every name in the book for succeeding in keeping all the spoiled ungrateful brats safe from terrorist attacks? The commander in chief of an all-volunteer army that is out there defending you and me?  Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this news affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for yourself and see all the good things and be glad? Think about it......are you upset at the President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it because the 'Media' told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful behind every day. Make no mistake about it.  The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to go. They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' discharge, an 'other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a ''dishonorable' ' discharge after a few days in the brig.  So why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of Americans?  Say what you want but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds it leads and they specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and guts How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what sells, and when criticized, try to defend their actions by 'justifying' them in one way or another Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer like O.J. Simpson to write a book about how he didn't kill his wife, but if he did he would have done it this way......Insane!  Turn off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of your bird cage. Then start being grateful for all we have as country. There is exponentially more good than bad. We are among the most blessed people on Earth and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful and appreciative.' 'With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, 'Are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?' 
David Letterman  Please keep this in circulation. There are so many people who need to read This 

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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 19 15:03:19 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:03:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country,
	he hit the nail on th...
Message-ID: <913378.27877.qm@web34702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

hi all

amstutz i know you're in kiwiworld sorry i said aussie - dont be mad mate

joyce and mel, from mother to mother are you telling each other you are satisfied with our country's direction? 
do you guys really get that we're setting world records for rich-country child-poverty?  in child health, education, social wealth, and even material wealth, dont you guys think the u.s. needs to do, and can do, waaaaay better? 

being happy with what i have personally (i am, and i'm blessed in every way).
  
is not the same as being happy with how other people's kids are supported by our education and healthcare systems in the u.s. 
is not the same as being happy with the direction our country is falling
is not the same as being happy that my own country violates the army field manual and geneva convention.
not to mention deceptions the american people believed at great cost of lives and future generations expense. 

i wish the fear-mongering extended to fear at the condition of our own country's internal-immediate problems.   and fear that u.s. international relations are also in bad disrepair.  

i hope the dissatisfaction concerns federal inaction in alternative energy solutions.  
i wish the dissatisfaction concerned our level of commitment to world food aids and drinking water solutions.  but that might be a bit optimistic.

i hope the dissatisfaction of the US people is the realization that we need to do better, and be better.    

if it's pure baseless dissatisfaction just to be spoiled brats in spite of excellent leadership and good internal and international policies, then i'm disappointed in the people too. then we're just rich spoiled ingrates who should be thankful that the u.s. is not palestine, right. 

is the point of this letter that we should be grateful that we're not a third world country?  
in fact, i am but that's not nearly a high enough mark to plan our future.


i love all you guys, wherever this country goes    -   julie





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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 19 15:13:03 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:13:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] fumble
In-Reply-To: <BAY137-W5650E865B4D633BD288FFEA72C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <803485.99271.qm@web34707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

oohhh, i cant tell why but steve started the letter which fell into my spambox.  

so then i thought it came from you, joyce, sooooo that's why i was surprised y'all are 2 moms high-fivin' each other (are you?) about our  great direction.  

from notamom
-julie





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From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 19 15:43:19 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:43:19 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country,
	he hit the nail on th...
In-Reply-To: <5096C1DE7D424F7798CE7C65FA37DBE6@MimituPC>
References: <BAY112-W49DF09EBECBF4131B8D227882C0@phx.gbl>
	<5096C1DE7D424F7798CE7C65FA37DBE6@MimituPC>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W26F87216332FE514DCB5CDA72C0@phx.gbl>


Julie.... Not following your train of thought here on several levels.  I don't see how this article had anything to do with moms or not-moms.  And no, we're not high-fiving each other but I think we do agree that we are grateful for the way we were raised to value things other than money, etc.  I think Joyce and I have clearly stated we have chosen different Presidential candidates but we agree on a lot of the same values and the things that we are indeed grateful for.  My response about electricity was made with a bit a humor there..... but honestly, living without electricity was harder than I thought it would be after having taken it for granted here for so long.  That's all.  Take that at face value. 
 
For the rest.... I do not live in a spirit of fear... or anger, for that matter.  I also don't believe in conspiracy theories or that "my country is falling".  Can we do better?  Yes.  We should each individually do what we can toward that end.... and I believe most people on this board are shining examples of how to do that in real, genuine, effective ways.
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 19 17:15:00 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country,
	he hit the nail on th...
In-Reply-To: <BAY137-W26F87216332FE514DCB5CDA72C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <385637.74125.qm@web34701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

hi again mel -  the thing about moms is that this generation wont be here very long, and in the scheme of things, the future of the u.s. is the kids.  
i guess to me, if the world would end when we die i wouldnt care as much how we steer the country now. 
 
do you think we're on par with any developed country, for quality of life under 18?    
you can definitely says YES for your own kids, right? 

are you splitting the u.s. up, thinking the kids in my 'hood have peace and good schools so the whole country should be ok?  

though i dont have kids, i'm definitely one of the dissatisfied.  obviously what many of the kids in the u.s. lack are decent sober working parents, but achieving those things plus higher standards of health and education takes a lot more social (governmnent tax-funded) programs than we are providing.

instead were selling out their futures, creating debts they inherit.

that's the mom comment... 
again, my honor to moms - there is no higher calling. 

salud  - julie 


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From lbainbridge at avmi.org  Sun Oct 19 20:14:50 2008
From: lbainbridge at avmi.org (Bainbridge, Lynda)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:14:50 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Letter from David Letterman about our country
In-Reply-To: <385637.74125.qm@web34701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <BAY137-W26F87216332FE514DCB5CDA72C0@phx.gbl>
	<385637.74125.qm@web34701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <14EF2ED28257BC499340D71BC5E93A8D223FF7@exchangesrv1.us.gmu.org>

I think that the letter is basically pointless - in answer to whoever
asked what the point is?  Yes, we are a country of ungrateful spoilt
brats, but seriously . . . is having electricity, running water and
hotels to stay in on a road trip the substance of life??  I don't think
so.  Yes, it is nice to drive somewhere and not get stopped at
checkpoints every few miles like we did in Ethiopia during the
revolution, but that doesn't make this a successful country.  What we
are missing is education, healthcare, and hope for a decent future for
all of the next generation.  I know Julie just said some of that, so I
am agreeing.  I have spent most of my career in an inner-city children's
hospital and the future for many of those kids is very, very bleak.
There isn't an easy solution - I know some of it is self-induced, but
the focus of this country has got to be on taking care of its own
problems, not just everyone else's.  The murder rate on the streets of
Kansas City climbs higher every day.  The graduation rate is ridiculous,
and for the amount of money put into our healthcare system, there are so
many that still have no access to basic healthcare.  Our infant
mortality rate is comparable to third world countries - that is really
sad.
I don't know how all of this can be solved without a great deal more
turmoil in the country because we have dug ourselves into a HUGE hole
that any president will have trouble digging out of.  I don't know how
anybody can honestly look at the whole country, not just your own
neighborhood, and be satisfied with the direction we are going.

I'm not sure it is a Mom thing, but I do know that as a Mom I worry
about the future my kid's face because of the decisions that have been
made by our generation and there is only so much I can personally do to
prepare them to face that future.

Lynda



-----Original Message-----

hi again mel -  the thing about moms is that this generation wont be
here very long, and in the scheme of things, the future of the u.s. is
the kids.  
i guess to me, if the world would end when we die i wouldnt care as much
how we steer the country now. 
 
do you think we're on par with any developed country, for quality of
life under 18?    
you can definitely says YES for your own kids, right? 

are you splitting the u.s. up, thinking the kids in my 'hood have peace
and good schools so the whole country should be ok?  

though i dont have kids, i'm definitely one of the dissatisfied.
obviously what many of the kids in the u.s. lack are decent sober
working parents, but achieving those things plus higher standards of
health and education takes a lot more social (governmnent tax-funded)
programs than we are providing.

instead were selling out their futures, creating debts they inherit.

that's the mom comment... 
again, my honor to moms - there is no higher calling. 

salud  - julie 



From randanallen at juno.com  Sun Oct 19 20:19:16 2008
From: randanallen at juno.com (randanallen at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:19:16 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country,
	he hit the nail on th...
Message-ID: <20081019.211917.5192.0.randanallen@juno.com>

Julie,
What do you want the government to do for the children?  Who is going to
do it?  I know those are general questions but I'm curious to read your
reply.

Randy

On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:15:00 -0700 (PDT) JULIE LINDHOLM
<lindholmsi at yahoo.com> writes:
> hi again mel -  the thing about moms is that this generation wont be 
> here very long, and in the scheme of things, the future of the u.s. 
> is the kids.  
> i guess to me, if the world would end when we die i wouldnt care as 
> much how we steer the country now. 
>  
> do you think we're on par with any developed country, for quality of 
> life under 18?    
> you can definitely says YES for your own kids, right? 
> 
> are you splitting the u.s. up, thinking the kids in my 'hood have 
> peace and good schools so the whole country should be ok?  
> 
> though i dont have kids, i'm definitely one of the dissatisfied.  
> obviously what many of the kids in the u.s. lack are decent sober 
> working parents, but achieving those things plus higher standards of 
> health and education takes a lot more social (governmnent 
> tax-funded) programs than we are providing.
> 
> instead were selling out their futures, creating debts they 
> inherit.
> 
> that's the mom comment... 
> again, my honor to moms - there is no higher calling. 
> 
> salud  - julie 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
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> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> 
> 
 
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From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Sun Oct 19 20:56:01 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:56:01 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Letter from David Letterman about our country
In-Reply-To: <14EF2ED28257BC499340D71BC5E93A8D223FF7@exchangesrv1.us.gmu.org>
References: <BAY137-W26F87216332FE514DCB5CDA72C0@phx.gbl>
	<385637.74125.qm@web34701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 
	<14EF2ED28257BC499340D71BC5E93A8D223FF7@exchangesrv1.us.gmu.org>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W10CA352AC47E324C8FE2C6A72F0@phx.gbl>

Yes.  I do agree that we do need to do more and I agree that children in the poorest neighborhoods have the greatest need.  However, the past has proven that throwing more government money and government oversight not only doesn't solve the solution it makes it much, much worse as most any school teacher would tell you.  I have 3 aunts, 8 first cousins, a sister and a brother-in-law all teaching in public schools... primarily lower income schools and they will tell you the more the government gets involved the more education and care of these children suffer.  Our government lacks common sense and parents lack backbone and responsibility for their own children.  More government is not the answer.  The same was true in our financial institutions.  When groups like ACORN got involved and lobbied and protested to allow low income families get loans they didn't come close to qualifying for they won and got all these fabulous loans for people with horrific credit and little to no work history.  Now they can't afford the loans and they are defaulting left and right.  Common sense has to prevail at some point.  To me, education and financial/credit issues have some more obvious solutions.  Healthcare.... wow!  That's going to take a miracle and I just don't see it and I worked in managed care for 13 years.  I just don't see a real, viable solution that can truly work.  I watched the head of Bank of America on 60 minutes tonight and thought there's someone with some serious common sense for a change.  Wonder if he might have some solutions?  Now, I have a 4 year old to go discipline with some serious common sense so this will have to be continued later!
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 20 08:07:36 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 07:07:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Letter from David Letterman about our country
In-Reply-To: <BAY137-W10CA352AC47E324C8FE2C6A72F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <439889.52343.qm@web34708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

hi again

dont let me run my mouth off and burn breakfast  -   mel, you're saying that government programs and funding for them wont work because of cases in point.  and i'm very familiar with how bad it can get in schools, but am not sure that teachers are overpaid, just not competitively evaluated and rewarded for performance. 

what about the DOD, the largest government-funded government-run socialized system in the whole US?  and it has a 2-tiered or parallel system, with (worlds biggest) arms dealing, security contracting, intelligence services if you dont want to be in a military system. 

if we have the biggest, wealthiest, war machine in history we can find a way to do better for our kids. and make jobs for parents (i have been for government work-projects like in the depression for a long time.  we desperately need so many projects - bullet trains, remove condemned buildings, build bike trails, plant stuff...

i'm saying this after leaving government service my whole career, and seeing how wasteful and irresponsible bureaucracies can be. waste does make me crazy, but i think there are ways to make individuals accountable, withoug just giving up, or underfunding programs people really need. 

all european countries (who all have higher taxes and at least semi-socialized systems. look at canada)  have found a way to make it work.  at least better than here, by all external healthcare parameters.  and even when they're not well-oiled health or education systems, at least everyone gets a chance.  

europe/canada dont have better humans and they dont have more money (at least historically).    and there is some incompetence, graft, waste, and nepotism, and i'm NOT for complete socialism in the US - but we do need to share opportunities better than we are doing now.  somehow.    and have enough compassion not to freak out if some people who really dont need help get help.  i think that's what eats up most of us more than anything about assistance.  but if we build playgrounds and make neighborhoods safe, and provide after-schools programs and swimming pools etc etc, we have to really be more concerned about long-term outcomes, ie how these kids turn out in 20 yrs.

it does cost more in taxes.  none of this would make my own life better, i would just pay more for people without chances.

i also think we need the option of private health/education next to the public services, just as the DOD has private arms/intelligence/security contractors -  again great opportunity for waste and corruption but there are public and private systems cooperating.

ok i didnt burn the muffins but i'm getting late to work now  -  
you are right my mom argument is meaningless.  the more i think about that, if i had kids i'd be a lot more worried about my own savings and my own kids future above all else.

take care all  -  julie




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From joyce_maxwell at comcast.net  Mon Oct 20 09:35:57 2008
From: joyce_maxwell at comcast.net (Joyce Maxwell)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:35:57 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] Letter from David Letterman about our country
In-Reply-To: <439889.52343.qm@web34708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <439889.52343.qm@web34708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <19E5059B42584CBFAF0C22F2C5BF2BB1@MimituPC>

Whew, a lot of passion and alot to chew over since Steve sent out the 
original "Letterman" e-mail...less than 24 hours ago.

I am stating up front that I am not satisfied with the direction this 
country is taking. That many Americans feel that we are the greatest nation 
and God's blessing to the rest of the world is, I think, the result of 
willfully closing our eyes to the reality around us.

That said, I am guilty as charged of lazy-mindedness in letting myself think 
that my neck of the woods describes the entire U.S. I live in a forested 
town with deep historical roots, where we read the police blotter in our 
weekly paper for its entertainment value--locals contact the police for 
everything from removing a large turtle from the road, to reporting 
suspicious vehicles that turn out to be commuters pulling over for a nap or 
utility vans. Next door is the quaint town of Maynard which has gained an 
unsavory reputation because, gasp, it is rumored that last year someone in 
that town stabbed another person, with a fork! In our own town, each 
residential plot is required to be on no less than one acre of land, and the 
town center consists of one church and the town hall.

House prices are more affordable here than closer to Boston, and the high 
school has a stellar reputation, which is why we moved here. When we did 
move here two years ago, our neighbors couldn't understand why we left all 
kinds of outside lights on every night. And, having just moved from Nairoi, 
we couldn't understand why people weren't more worried about nighttime 
security.

So, I am torn about whether I should be trying to dig into and become part 
of my well-to-do, well-educated,  peaceful and rural community...or...? As 
someone who has "wandered" a lot in my life, I want to make this place feel 
like "home." As I do dig in locally, it is true that I generalize from my 
local community to the broader U.S. And I am guilty of wanting to believe 
that everything is "hunky-dory" here. And I can get away with it, too. You 
could say that I sleep better at night that way...

Joyce 



From jennyishome at austin.rr.com  Mon Oct 20 12:29:04 2008
From: jennyishome at austin.rr.com (Jenny Holloway)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:29:04 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Voting
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1224525602.59308.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.3.1224525602.59308.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <F7B2B4FFA40F46C79DDD108A6C93ACA7@gijenn34PC>

You know we will all probably never know what exactly is in the hearts of 
politicians. I think that is why it is so important to Pray your vote. Where 
God directs you to vote in your heart is more important than any debate or 
commercial.
I also think that as Christians we all should pray that God will widen our 
verizons of reaching out to people. I have learned so much with STeve being 
away now and when he was before in our marriage too. People need each other 
and need others to reach out to them. The best way to get help to those in 
need is to see the need and act on it. In order to see the need you have to 
also be "out" there looking for it too. The government can play it's games 
but nothing is too Big for God to handle if we only will do His work. You 
never know how much one little action can mean. We can all sit around and 
complain about what is going on in our world or we can pray about it and do 
THINGS to make a difference. Not just something but many things.
The Prayers for our election need to start today as it is early voting time 
already. Our world needs prayer and that is more powerful than a world of 
ballots!
Don't forget to HUG people too. Amazing how long some people go without a 
HUG~
Jenny
Jenny and Steve Holloway

http://www.mymangosteen.com/distributors/jholloway/

I am a princess... my Father is the King of Kings!

Stop telling God how big your storm is.......instead
tell your storm HOW BIG YOUR GOD IS!!!!!!!!!! 



From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 21 12:06:57 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:06:57 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 23
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1224525602.59308.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.3.1224525602.59308.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W55DA3BB8FFDE5210EA1C4B882E0@phx.gbl>


To all:  Its great reading ya'lls thoughts about the problems of our country but until our Congress represents us as one country nothing will change and all the talk and good ideas will never come to light. Yes I agree we need to have better education, health care, and basic services but until congress comes up with plans for each state and each state has to follow them for the money then nothing will happen... steve 
_________________________________________________________________
You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Tue Oct 21 14:38:05 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 23
Message-ID: <874020.61945.qm@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Steve:

You complain a lot about congress and them not representing us, but I'm not sure what you suggest we should do about it.  It is us that put congress where they are and us that can take them out, so it sounds like we have some responsibility there.  What do you suggest we do?

Mark

PS.  Yes, I'm back.  The wedding and honeymoon were marvelous.  



----- Original Message ----
From: Stephen M H <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com>
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 1:06:57 PM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 23

 
To all:  Its great reading ya'lls thoughts about the problems of our country but until our Congress represents us as one country nothing will change and all the talk and good ideas will never come to light. Yes I agree we need to have better education, health care, and basic services but until congress comes up with plans for each state and each state has to follow them for the money then nothing will happen... steve 


________________________________
You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. See how
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 21 16:07:08 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:07:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] kiwis
In-Reply-To: <874020.61945.qm@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <465522.24704.qm@web34704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

HEY AMSTUTZ  you can run but you cant hide
in an NPR interview today someone said "Kiwi's have been accused of caring more about US politics than their own"... betcha you cant escape news about this race down there.

welcome back mark -  did you guys go somewhere cool?  
did you speak well and didnt trip in the ceremony? 

steve -  save your last e-mail because you're going to see.... 
i am positive that (after we pull thru the gathering storm) things will take a better direction.  

you're right, senate and congress policies and conduct need major reform, and we have to keep pushing for that (vote, vote...)

oh yes everybody....  vote. 

- julie



--- On Tue, 10/21/08, Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net> wrote:

> From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 23
> To: "RVA class of '80" <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 2:38 PM
> Steve:
> 
> You complain a lot about congress and them not representing
> us, but I'm not sure what you suggest we should do about
> it.  It is us that put congress where they are and us that
> can take them out, so it sounds like we have some
> responsibility there.  What do you suggest we do?
> 
> Mark
> 
> PS.  Yes, I'm back.  The wedding and honeymoon were
> marvelous.  
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Stephen M H <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com>
> To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 1:06:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 23
> 
>  
> To all:  Its great reading ya'lls thoughts about the
> problems of our country but until our Congress represents us
> as one country nothing will change and all the talk and good
> ideas will never come to light. Yes I agree we need to have
> better education, health care, and basic services but until
> congress comes up with plans for each state and each state
> has to follow them for the money then nothing will happen...
> steve 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond
> your PC. See
> how_______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80


      


From Swissmiss at compuserve.com  Tue Oct 21 21:01:35 2008
From: Swissmiss at compuserve.com (Nancy Maillefer)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:01:35 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] tv
Message-ID: <200810212301_MC3-2-14C0-815D@compuserve.com>


 
HELLOOO NANCY,  can you tell us what it showed?  
i didnt get to watch the documentary.

Julie........ it was pointless........ they just kind of hashed over the
same things we've all heard - I didn't learn anything at all.

Nancy


From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 21 22:10:34 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:10:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] propositions,  ballotpedia
Message-ID: <691437.6407.qm@web34702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

hi again everyone...

i took my ballot to the e.r. and several RNs and MDs and i together could not decipher the meanings of our 6 to 8 arizona propositions.??? we tried. 
there are triple negatives and legalese, and they are completely not readable.

so i looked online and found a great source -?google? your state,?ballotpedia"??? - it's politically neutral. 

it tells which organizations proposed and paid how much to get?each proposition on?your state's?ballot.? ?it tells who has opposed it, and how much they each?paid to oppose it.?? it tells?whether the proposition has been presented and failed in the past, and if so, why. ? 
i found it extremely useful, as there are?layers of buried meanings in each one.? 

i left printed texts?in the e.r. and o.r. because all employees i have talked to cant?interperet their ballots either. 

have fun everybody -? julie


      


From tory at trwengineering.com  Wed Oct 22 09:40:33 2008
From: tory at trwengineering.com (Tory Walker)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:40:33 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] propositions,  ballotpedia
In-Reply-To: <691437.6407.qm@web34702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <691437.6407.qm@web34702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004601c9345c$85dc4250$9194c6f0$@com>

Thanks for the good info, Julie.  It just now occurred to me that you are in
John McCain's home state. I did not previously make the connection.  What a
great opportunity for you to vote for the home team ;-)

Honestly, it is very hard for me to be excited about this election.  Not
only do I not care for my choices, I don't know anything about most of the
people I am supposed to vote for (local offices).  This has bothered me in
previous elections, but more so now.  Other than the wonderful things they
say about themselves, I can't find any information about them.  This is
depressing, especially for judges, who do not need to divulge any
information about their world views.

If someone asked me what is the biggest problem facing our nation, ignorance
or apathy? I might just answer, "I don't know and I don't care!"  

Of course I do care deeply, and I will vote.  I recently read that in the
2000 presidential election, 24 million of the nation's 59 million
evangelicals, who were qualified to vote, were not registered. Of the 35
million who were registered, only 15 million actually cast their ballots.
If you do the math, that is only 25% (regardless of party) that should
deeply care who is elected to lead this nation, our states, our counties,
our cities, our schools!  I like what Mark last wrote.  We ARE responsible
for the leaders we elect.  Put another way, we deserve what we get.  If
there are similar sites for local offices that I have not found, I would
like to hear from anyone on that.

Mark, welcome back!  Glad you had a great honeymoon.


Tory 




From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 22 13:43:29 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:43:29 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1224698403.47425.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.3.1224698403.47425.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W180D4F5C07795AD7EC96988290@phx.gbl>


Mark:  Yes I do complain about our leaders (if you can call them that) in Congress... And yes would love for each of them to show some care for each of us citizens... But coiming up with a good solution is like you and me agreeing on Obama being the best canidate for the Presidency. I guess I am just to dang ole fashion and believe that if you want to be a leader you have to work your way up the ladder and wait your turn..
 
Yes we do elect them and expect them to take care of us but look how it has turned out. So I'd think a good plan would be for them in Congress to put all the money in a pool and out of the pool each State gets a certain amount for health care, education, roads, etc.. Then we as citizens of that state can have more say in whats its spent on by electing better governors and state representatives... As it is now our Congress is bargaining with each other- I'll rub your back if you rub mine..favor for favor which has no use in todays world.
 
Julie:  Yea if he gets in I am going to wait for his mistakes. And I hope the FBI does their job and finds out hes broken the laws in recieving money for his election from foreigners . To me he is a fraud and will do whatever it takes to get elected...By the way did you catch the story of a dead gold fish getting a voter registertation card?.... Raising the dead and even going after animals to vote- What next letting Aussies, French, Mexicans etc vote... And with that are we Americans allowed to vote in their elections? Just try it and you'll see protests in their streets saying AMERICA stay out of our politics..
 
Mel:  Have you seen any dead people voting yet? If you see them be verrrrrryyyyyy careful. hahaa.. 
 
 
Glad your back Mark and hope you had fun... steve
 
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive.
http://skydrive.live.com/welcome.aspx?provision=1?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_102008
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 22 18:36:49 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:36:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] bum votes
Message-ID: <946346.19012.qm@web34701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

i think, the more people that vote the better, and?BTW it's not very original for either party to scare up dead votes or try to suppress real votes. 

my (D) friend's mom has dementia, her other (R) son ordered a ballot for her and?cast her vote for her, which is not very significant, one vote.? 
but it makes?you think?about all the people who are not mentally competent.?? there is no way?voting can be perfect.? but still, the more people that vote, the better.?? 

norman, how is stability in Kenya since the last election?? i'm still so thankful there was not more violence.? 
i think the UN should have a whole peace-keeping plan in place for failed elections.? I even think the UN should provide election support and services, to countries too new or too unorganized or poor, if they ask for help conducting fair elections.

tory i'm the only one of us in AZ i guess, since john and ginny took off to NM.??????We usually?go republican but last time around my own county went for Kerry 60 : 40.?? Probably becasue flagstaff is "granola town" and the rez is low income - usually predominantly dem. 

we'll see what happens but it's unlikely mccain can lose in his?own state.

take care all -? julie







?



________________________________
From: Stephen M H <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com>
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 12:43:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 25

Mark:? Yes I do complain about our leaders (if you can call them that) in Congress... And yes would love for each of them to show some care for each of us citizens... But coiming up with a good solution is like you and me agreeing on Obama being the best canidate for the Presidency. I guess I am just to dang ole fashion and believe that if you want to be a leader you have to work your way up the ladder and wait your turn..
?
Yes we do elect them and expect them to take care of us but look how it has turned out. So I'd think a good plan would be?for them in Congress to put all the money in a pool and out of the pool each State gets a certain amount for health care, education, roads, etc.. Then we as citizens of that state can have more say in whats its spent on by electing better governors and state representatives... As it is now our?Congress is?bargaining with each other- I'll rub your back if you rub mine..favor for favor which has no use in todays world.
?
Julie:? Yea if he gets in I am going to wait for his mistakes. And I hope the FBI does their job and finds out hes broken the laws in recieving money for his election from?foreigners . To me he is a fraud and will do whatever it takes to get elected...By the way did you catch the story of a dead gold fish getting a voter registertation card?.... Raising the dead and even going after animals to vote- What next letting Aussies, French, Mexicans etc vote... And with that are we Americans allowed to vote in their elections? Just try it and you'll see protests in their streets saying AMERICA stay out of our politics..
?
Mel:? Have you seen any dead people voting yet? If you see them be verrrrrryyyyyy careful. hahaa.. 
?
?
Glad your back Mark and hope you had fun... steve



?
?
?


?

________________________________
Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive. Start uploading now 


      
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From heffling at whidbey.com  Wed Oct 22 21:39:24 2008
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:39:24 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 25
References: <mailman.3.1224698403.47425.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <001e01c934c0$f1f46260$2202a8c0@Desktophp>

Welcome back, Mark!  I'm out of the loop; been too busy to keep up... Just 
got a revealing article passed on to me today, I think it makes a good point 
regardless of which side you're on. The other problem w/ the system, Tory- 
lack of honesty.
Grace

By Orson Scott Card
Editor's note: Orson Scott Card is a Democrat and a newspaper columnist, and 
in this opinion piece he takes on both while lamenting the current state of 
journalism.

An open letter to the local daily paper - almost every local daily paper in 
America:
I remember reading All the President's Men and thinking: That's journalism. 
You do what it takes to get the truth and you lay it before the public, 
because the public has a right to know.
This housing crisis didn't come out of nowhere.  It was not a vague 
emanation of the evil Bush administration.
It was a direct result of the political decision, back in the late 1990s, to 
loosen the rules of lending so that home loans would be more accessible to 
poor people.  Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were authorized to approve risky 
loans.
What is a risky loan?  It's a loan that the recipient is likely not to be 
able to repay.
The goal of this rule change was to help the poor - which especially would 
help members of minority groups.  But how does it help these people to give 
them a loan that they can't repay?  They get into a house, yes, but when 
they can't make the payments, they lose the house - along with their credit 
rating.
They end up worse off than before.
This was completely foreseeable and in fact many people did foresee it.  One 
political party, in Congress and in the executive branch, tried repeatedly 
to tighten up the rules.  The other party blocked every such attempt and 
tried to loosen them.
Furthermore, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were making political contributions 
to the very members of Congress who were allowing them to make irresponsible 
loans.  (Though why quasi-federal agencies were allowed to do so baffles me. 
It's as if the Pentagon were allowed to contribute to the political 
campaigns of Congressmen who support increasing their budget.)
Isn't there a story here?  Doesn't journalism require that you who produce 
our daily paper tell the truth about who brought us to a position where the 
only way to keep confidence in our economy was a $700 billion bailout? 
Aren't you supposed to follow the money and see which politicians were 
benefiting personally from the deregulation of mortgage lending?
I have no doubt that if these facts had pointed to the Republican Party or 
to John McCain as the guilty parties, you would be treating it as a vast 
scandal.  'Housing-gate,' no doubt.  Or 'Fannie-gate.'
Instead, it was Senator Christopher Dodd and Congressman Barney Frank, both 
Democrats, who denied that there were any problems, who refused Bush 
administration requests to set up a regulatory agency to watch over Fannie 
Mae and Freddie Mac, and who were still pushing for these agencies to go 
even further in promoting sub-prime mortgage loans almost up to the minute 
they failed.
As Thomas Sowell points out in a TownHall.com essay entitled 'Do Facts 
Matter?' ( http://snipurl.com/457townhall_com] ): 'Alan Greenspan warned 
them four years ago.  So did the Chairman of the Council of Economic 
Advisers to the President.  So did Bush's Secretary of the Treasury.'
These are facts.  This financial crisis was completely preventable.  The 
party that blocked any attempt to prevent it was ... the Democratic Party. 
The party that tried to prevent it was ... the Republican Party.
Yet when Nancy Pelosi accused the Bush administration and Republican 
deregulation of causing the crisis, you in the press did not hold her to 
account for her lie.  Instead, you criticized Republicans who took offense 
at this lie and refused to vote for the bailout!
What?  It's not the liar, but the victims of the lie who are to blame?
Now let's follow the money ... right to the presidential candidate who is 
the number-two recipient of campaign contributions from Fannie Mae.
And after Freddie Raines, the CEO of Fannie Mae who made $90 million while 
running it into the ground, was fired for his incompetence, one presidential 
candidate's campaign actually consulted him for advice on housing.
If that presidential candidate had been John McCain, you would have called 
it a major scandal and we would be getting stories in your paper every day 
about how incompetent and corrupt he was.
But instead, that candidate was Barack Obama, and so you have buried this 
story, and when the McCain campaign dared to call Raines an 'adviser' to the 
Obama campaign - because that campaign had sought his advice - you actually 
let Obama's people get away with accusing McCain of lying, merely because 
Raines wasn't listed as an official adviser to the Obama campaign.
You would never tolerate such weasely nit-picking from a Republican.
If you who produce our local daily paper actually had any principles, you 
would be pounding this story, because the prosperity of all Americans was 
put at risk by the foolish, short-sighted, politically selfish, and possibly 
corrupt actions of leading Democrats, including Obama.
If you who produce our local daily paper had any personal honor, you would 
find it unbearable to let the American people believe that somehow 
Republicans were to blame for this crisis.
There are precedents.  Even though President Bush and his administration 
never said that Iraq sponsored or was linked to 9/11, you could not stand 
the fact that Americans had that misapprehension - so you pounded us with 
the fact that there was no such link.  (Along the way, you created the false 
impression that Bush had lied to them and said that there was a connection.)
If you had any principles, then surely right now, when the American people 
are set to blame President Bush and John McCain for a crisis they tried to 
prevent, and are actually shifting to approve of Barack Obama because of a 
crisis he helped cause, you would be laboring at least as hard to correct 
that false impression.
Your job, as journalists, is to tell the truth.  That's what you claim you 
do, when you accept people's money to buy or subscribe to your paper.
But right now, you are consenting to or actively promoting a big fat lie - 
that the housing crisis should somehow be blamed on Bush, McCain, and the 
Republicans.  You have trained the American people to blame everything bad - 
even bad weather - on Bush, and they are responding as you have taught them 
to.
If you had any personal honor, each reporter and editor would be insisting 
on telling the truth - even if it hurts the election chances of your 
favorite candidate.
Because that's what honorable people do.  Honest people tell the truth even 
when they don't like the probable consequences.  That's what honesty means . 
That's how trust is earned.
Barack Obama is just another politician, and not a very wise one.  He has 
revealed his ignorance and naivete time after time - and you have swept it 
under the rug, treated it as nothing.
Meanwhile, you have participated in the borking of Sarah Palin, reporting 
savage attacks on her for the pregnancy of her unmarried daughter - while 
you ignored the story of John Edwards's own adultery for many months.
So I ask you now: Do you have any standards at all?  Do you even know what 
honesty means?
Is getting people to vote for Barack Obama so important that you will throw 
away everything that journalism is supposed to stand for?
You might want to remember the way the National Organization of Women threw 
away their integrity by supporting Bill Clinton despite his well-known 
pattern of sexual exploitation of powerless women.  Who listens to NOW 
anymore?  We know they stand for nothing; they have no principles.
That's where you are right now.
It's not too late.  You know that if the situation were reversed, and the 
truth would damage McCain and help Obama, you would be moving heaven and 
earth to get the true story out there.
If you want to redeem your honor, you will swallow hard and make a list of 
all the stories you would print if it were McCain who had been getting money 
from Fannie Mae, McCain whose campaign had consulted with its discredited 
former CEO, McCain who had voted against tightening its lending practices.
Then you will print them, even though every one of those true stories will 
point the finger of blame at the reckless Democratic Party, which put our 
nation's prosperity at risk so they could feel good about helping the poor, 
and lay a fair share of the blame at Obama's door.
You will also tell the truth about John McCain: that he tried, as a Senator, 
to do what it took to prevent this crisis.  You will tell the truth about 
President Bush: that his administration tried more than once to get Congress 
to regulate lending in a responsible way.
This was a Congress-caused crisis, beginning during the Clinton 
administration, with Democrats leading the way into the crisis and blocking 
every effort to get out of it in a timely fashion.
If you at our local daily newspaper continue to let Americans believe - and 
vote as if - President Bush and the Republicans caused the crisis, then you 
are joining in that lie.
If you do not tell the truth about the Democrats - including Barack Obama - 
and do so with the same energy you would use if the miscreants were 
Republicans - then you are not journalists by any standard.
You're just the public relations machine of the Democratic Party, and it's 
time you were all fired and real journalists brought in, so that we can 
actually have a news paper in our city.




From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Thu Oct 23 00:18:50 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:18:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] propositions,  ballotpedia
Message-ID: <51774.82190.qm@web83104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hey Tory:

The local races can be difficult to get info on, particularly the judges. In IL there are a number of judges who get voted on in each election with the question being whether they should simply be retained in office.  At this point, no judge has ever been put out.  The attitude most people seem to take is that they probably deserve to be there and If I haven't heard anything otherwise they are probably OK.   A few years ago there was a judge who was doing some incredibly inappropriate things in his courtroom.  The big one that made the news was that he wouldn't allow a woman to go to the bathroom and she ended up wetting her pants while sitting in his courtroom.  There was a big stink when it happened - but it was over a year to the next election - he didn't get bumped.  What is really crazy is that there are eight to ten law organizations, some with political leanings and some without, that puts out ratings on these judges every election.  The rating is
 simply are they qualified and competent or not.  The vast majority are.  There are some that some groups don't seem to like and you can get that there is a political flavor there,  but invariably there are one or two judges that are judged by all groups across the board as not qualified - yet they never get put out.  These ratings are run in both of the major papers in Chicago and in a lot of the local community papers - but most people I talk to don't even know they are there.  My considered and unflattering opinion is that most people in our country are either too dumb or too apathetic to make decent voting choices.

Sorry about the above, Tory.  I meant to just give you some possibilties for finding info (cause you are clearly not in the too dumb or too apathetic group) but ended up going on a rant instead (I bet you all were hoping marriage would mellow me weren't you).  Anyway, I would say you might check out info like the judge ratings if they have anything like that in CA.  Of course, your judicial system is likely different from ours.  The league of women voters often has local stuff as well that seems pretty balanced (info about candidates positions and there are other groups that do the same, though I can't remember what they are at this point.  

Good luck.

Mark



----- Original Message ----
From: Tory Walker <tory at trwengineering.com>
To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:40:33 AM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] propositions,  ballotpedia

Thanks for the good info, Julie.  It just now occurred to me that you are in
John McCain's home state. I did not previously make the connection.  What a
great opportunity for you to vote for the home team ;-)

Honestly, it is very hard for me to be excited about this election.  Not
only do I not care for my choices, I don't know anything about most of the
people I am supposed to vote for (local offices).  This has bothered me in
previous elections, but more so now.  Other than the wonderful things they
say about themselves, I can't find any information about them.  This is
depressing, especially for judges, who do not need to divulge any
information about their world views.

If someone asked me what is the biggest problem facing our nation, ignorance
or apathy? I might just answer, "I don't know and I don't care!"  

Of course I do care deeply, and I will vote.  I recently read that in the
2000 presidential election, 24 million of the nation's 59 million
evangelicals, who were qualified to vote, were not registered. Of the 35
million who were registered, only 15 million actually cast their ballots.
If you do the math, that is only 25% (regardless of party) that should
deeply care who is elected to lead this nation, our states, our counties,
our cities, our schools!  I like what Mark last wrote.  We ARE responsible
for the leaders we elect.  Put another way, we deserve what we get.  If
there are similar sites for local offices that I have not found, I would
like to hear from anyone on that.

Mark, welcome back!  Glad you had a great honeymoon.


Tory 



_______________________________________________
ClassOf80 mailing list
ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 23 08:09:42 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:09:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 25
Message-ID: <52781.80492.qm@web34708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



HI GRACE

this isnt old news, it's just kind of confusing:??? 
google? "?freddie mac DCI "

DCI is a?company that influences?senators, as?it's business.? DCI's "product" is?affecting legislation.????? 
among other?unsavory?things.

So this senator (R) Hagel recognized (a few yrs ago) that freddie mac was going to tank and take down a lot of the economy with it.??? He proposed legislation to investigate, and all republicans were for it, and all democrats were against it.??? 

Like your article says, the dems idea was that it was a good thing to get poor folks into homes (they couldnt afford).?? whoa. 

Goodyear (R),?? who ran DCI? - then?McCains' campaign - ???ran a 2 yr "stealth" campaign to buy off republicans so they would not vote for the bill to investigate freddie mac.

it worked: they spent 2 mil over 2 yrs and bought off enough republicans to keep everything status quo with freddie mac.

So.... as obama?stated in the last debate "everyone?is to blame",?? but honestly i think some are to blame more than others.?? 
on the freddie mac situation specifically, mccain was never targeted by DCI and he did vote for investigation/reform,? so big score for mccain on that.? 
i cant say why he turned around and hired Goodyear to run his own campaign tho.?? 

like steve says, the way things are run is?extremely UNrepresentative of?the peoples' needs and wishes... they need to stop the whole routine of buying each other off to?vote some way or other.? it's as old as?"pork?barrel politics" and "dirty politics".?? unlike steve i dont see it as a dem or rep problem -? it's everybody's problem.? 

it is a specific (stated) goal of obama to clean up that lobbyist nonsense,? and if he can deliver even somewhat, it's a step in the right direction.? pray.

PS anybody thought of praying for both sides??? or praying for OBL?? 

just a thought? -? julie


      


From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 23 11:01:30 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:01:30 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 26
In-Reply-To: <mailman.797.1224742745.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.797.1224742745.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W454F4E7F5EAF513FF0DC6188280@phx.gbl>


Julie: Yea I am sure there are a few Republican voters that have done the fraud voting but nothing compared to what ACORN has been proven to have already done. So nothing on how Obama has committed fraud already and your still following him. Nothing from you on how the Republicans tried to stop the Mortgage crisis...Nothing on how we have enough oil in the U.S to keep us supplied for 40 some years...
 
Mark:  You mellow out? Hopefully around your wife but I don't expect it to be around us. 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive.
http://skydrive.live.com/welcome.aspx?provision=1?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_102008
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From tory at trwengineering.com  Thu Oct 23 10:17:31 2008
From: tory at trwengineering.com (Tory Walker)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:17:31 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] propositions,  ballotpedia
In-Reply-To: <51774.82190.qm@web83104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <51774.82190.qm@web83104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00c201c9352a$d9c3b4b0$8d4b1e10$@com>

Good information, Mark.  Thanks.  I think the situation is no different
wherever you happen to be.  Politics is just a dirty business, but  I will
give it another shot to try and find out who is more likely to represent
with integrity or judge constitutionally, as the case may be.  It is our
duty, even if it is laborious and discouraging.

Tory

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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 23 11:17:18 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 10:17:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 26
Message-ID: <88307.45534.qm@web34705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

YO? - ?you read my last email steve?? 

definitely still "following" obama???
(maybe as loyally as you follow bush)?? 

and again? - it's a whole twisted system and nobody in it is?quite good.?? 

?-?? ?julie




________________________________
From: Stephen M H <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com>
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 10:01:30 AM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 26

Julie: Yea I am sure there are a few Republican voters that have done the fraud voting but nothing compared to what ACORN has been proven to have already done. So nothing on how Obama has committed fraud already and your still following him. Nothing from you on how the Republicans tried to stop the Mortgage crisis...Nothing on how we have enough oil in the U.S to keep us supplied for 40 some years...
?
Mark:? You mellow out? Hopefully around your wife but I don't expect it to be around us. 

?

________________________________
Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive. Start uploading now 


      
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 23 13:27:14 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:27:14 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 27
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1224784801.96155.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.3.1224784801.96155.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W9DDC1964FAB7E0E738C9488280@phx.gbl>


Julie; So where is this stealth information on how Republicans were bought off? Like to read it....I just hear about Barney Franks saying nothing will happen and its a good program....Who is Goodyear? And you mention he is one of McCain's advisors...What about Obama hes got a list of crooks who are millionaires as his advisors who were leading Fannie Mae and Mac and the ACORN organization... So its the same ole politics for your party.. Pay them millions in salaries and make them advisors. And what get rid of Lobbyist? Yea right it like saying right after this election their will be health care or Obama if elected is not going to steal money from the rich and give it to the LAZY.. 
_________________________________________________________________
Want to read Hotmail messages in Outlook? The Wordsmiths show you how.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/wedowindowslive.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!20EE04FBC541789!167.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_092008
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From dan.jealouse at worldteam.org  Thu Oct 23 16:03:55 2008
From: dan.jealouse at worldteam.org (Dan Jealouse)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:03:55 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Letter from David Letterman about our country
References: <BAY137-W26F87216332FE514DCB5CDA72C0@phx.gbl><385637.74125.qm@web34701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<14EF2ED28257BC499340D71BC5E93A8D223FF7@exchangesrv1.us.gmu.org>
Message-ID: <B77086987483410A9CA99BCDCB5CBFBF@JEALOUSE>

Linda you said: 

"Our infant
mortality rate is comparable to third world countries - that is really
sad."

Where are you getting your information from? here is what I found, and this doesn't even list what I consider real third world countries most of which are in Africa.  Cameroon where I lived has about 100.  That is a long way off from the US's 6.9.
Dan Jealouse

Table 1. International Infant Mortality Rates 

      (per 1,000 live births) 

      Countries 
     1990 
     1999 
     
      Latin America 
     
      Argentina 
     25.2
     18.4
     
      Bolivia 
     80.0
     58.8
     
      Brazil 
     47.8
     32.2
     
      Chile 
     16.0
     9.98
     
      Costa Rica 
     14.8
     12.37
     
      Cuba 
     10.7
     6.87
     
      Uruguay 
     21.20
     14.50
     
      Venezuela 
     24.60
     20.20
     
      Europe 
     
      Austria 
     7.80
     4.40
     
      France 
     7.30
     4.80
     
      Germany 
     7.00
     4.82
     
      Greece 
     9.70
     6.02
     
      Hungary 
     14.80
     8.40
     
      Italy 
     8.20
     5.42
     
      Portugal 
     10.90
     5.60
     
      Switzerland 
     6.80
     4.56
     
      United Kingdom 
     7.90
     5.70
     
      North America 
     
      Canada 
     6.80
     5.30
     
      United States 
     9.40
     6.90
     
      Asia 
     
      China 
     33.06
     30.24
     
      India 
     80.0
     70.90
     
      Indonesia 
     60.0
     41.92
     
      Japan 
     4.60
     3.60
     
      Source: World Bank, World Development Indicators (2001). 
     

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bainbridge, Lynda" <lbainbridge at avmi.org>
To: "RVA class of '80" <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:14 PM
Subject: [ClassOf80] Letter from David Letterman about our country


>I think that the letter is basically pointless - in answer to whoever
> asked what the point is?  Yes, we are a country of ungrateful spoilt
> brats, but seriously . . . is having electricity, running water and
> hotels to stay in on a road trip the substance of life??  I don't think
> so.  Yes, it is nice to drive somewhere and not get stopped at
> checkpoints every few miles like we did in Ethiopia during the
> revolution, but that doesn't make this a successful country.  What we
> are missing is education, healthcare, and hope for a decent future for
> all of the next generation.  I know Julie just said some of that, so I
> am agreeing.  I have spent most of my career in an inner-city children's
> hospital and the future for many of those kids is very, very bleak.
> There isn't an easy solution - I know some of it is self-induced, but
> the focus of this country has got to be on taking care of its own
> problems, not just everyone else's.  The murder rate on the streets of
> Kansas City climbs higher every day.  The graduation rate is ridiculous,
> and for the amount of money put into our healthcare system, there are so
> many that still have no access to basic healthcare.  Our infant
> mortality rate is comparable to third world countries - that is really
> sad.
> I don't know how all of this can be solved without a great deal more
> turmoil in the country because we have dug ourselves into a HUGE hole
> that any president will have trouble digging out of.  I don't know how
> anybody can honestly look at the whole country, not just your own
> neighborhood, and be satisfied with the direction we are going.
> 
> I'm not sure it is a Mom thing, but I do know that as a Mom I worry
> about the future my kid's face because of the decisions that have been
> made by our generation and there is only so much I can personally do to
> prepare them to face that future.
> 
> Lynda
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> hi again mel -  the thing about moms is that this generation wont be
> here very long, and in the scheme of things, the future of the u.s. is
> the kids.  
> i guess to me, if the world would end when we die i wouldnt care as much
> how we steer the country now. 
> 
> do you think we're on par with any developed country, for quality of
> life under 18?    
> you can definitely says YES for your own kids, right? 
> 
> are you splitting the u.s. up, thinking the kids in my 'hood have peace
> and good schools so the whole country should be ok?  
> 
> though i dont have kids, i'm definitely one of the dissatisfied.
> obviously what many of the kids in the u.s. lack are decent sober
> working parents, but achieving those things plus higher standards of
> health and education takes a lot more social (governmnent tax-funded)
> programs than we are providing.
> 
> instead were selling out their futures, creating debts they inherit.
> 
> that's the mom comment... 
> again, my honor to moms - there is no higher calling. 
> 
> salud  - julie 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Thu Oct 23 23:37:11 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:37:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] brief with link
Message-ID: <614777.77514.qm@web83105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If you want a more balanced view of what all went in to the current money crisis, the following link to an article aobut Alan Greenspan's views might be helpful.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081023/ap_on_bi_ge/greenspan
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Thu Oct 23 23:34:03 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:34:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 26
Message-ID: <48209.29467.qm@web83107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Steve, Steve, Steve:

You do make me think of some of the more humorous recent developments in the electoral process.  With regard to "Nothing from you on how the Republicans tried to stop the Mortgage crisis" given to Julie - you really ought to read her emails before you toss out such statements.  But the statement itself is interesting and how it grew to something people are actually talking about is laughable.  First people started blaming the mortgage crisis on the dems pushing to loosen up the sub prime loans so more poor people could get loans to buy houses.  That is true and certainly is a factor in the crisis - but the way it built from there is laughable.  That happened in the late 90s and there was a dem in the white house.  Of course republicans wouldn't support that because they don't give a s**t about poor people and were afraid it might take away from their wealth.  Nevertheless, it passed.  Then banks figured out they could make a lot of money off of it.  I
 believe if you actually paid attention to the crisis you know that it wasn't just Fannie and Freddie, there were a lot of banks involved.  Lots of them jumped on the subprime bandwagon.  The nice things about subprimes is that you can charge higher interest rates.  It even got to the point where some banks were writing sub prime loans for people who could qualify for better rates - more money into the bank coffers.  And with the ever and rapidly expanding value of the housing market, there wasn't really that much risk.  Equity was growing faster than debt so the banks weren't really taking on that much risk - they loved the sub primes.  Then they started slicing and dicing them in lots of wonderful ways (result of deregulation in the securities market, which I really have a very poor understanding of, but I think most people do and that is part of the problem) and everybody was making so much money it was a great party.  The only problem was that it
 depended on the everexpanding housing market and well, we know what happened there.  There is lots of blame to go around.  The big problem is that most of the nation bought into the idea of the possibiltiy of ever expanding growth, the idea that greed is good, and the idea that regulation, particularly government regulation, is bad.  There is a lot of blame to go around, so much that I don't think it even makes sense to try to point fingers.  We all ought to just get together and figure out what to do with the mess we have. 

The second thing that I have been amused by lately is all the talk about Obama being a socialist (I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up on this list).  It is so amusing since the current Republican administration has just taken on the biggest socialist project since the early 20th century by functionally nationalizing a good portion of our financial system.  Oh wait - they didn't really nationalize it because they still believe regulation is bad and how banks are going to be regulated is still up in the air.  The republicans still think regulation is bad (though I know McCain has changed his tune on that a bit in the past couple of months - Mr. "our economy is strong" himself) and think bailing out the banks will make things work OK.  That is kind of like continually writing out thousand dollar checks to your drug addicted twenty five year old son and assuming that with each of them he will actually put a deposit on an apartment and buy a nice set of
 job interview clothes.

And I'm really not sure what your point is about the US having enough oil to supply us for 40 years.  That doesn't seem to long to me.  I will likely not make it that long (the life expectancy for an american man being 75 years, which comes in about thirty years for me) but there are a lot of kids and other young people I care about who should still be alive at that time.  And the oil gets harder and harder to extract the less there is.  My guess in some way it is a jab about offshore drilling.  Offshore drilling is really a red herring.  The oil companies have drilling leases on millions of acres of oil covering land that they already aren't drilling - why don't they start there.

Thanks for emphasizing the idiocy of what's going on in our politics.  It is certainly worth a laugh

Mark



----- Original Message ----
From: Stephen M H <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com>
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 12:01:30 PM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 26

 Julie: Yea I am sure there are a few Republican voters that have done the fraud voting but nothing compared to what ACORN has been proven to have already done. So nothing on how Obama has committed fraud already and your still following him. Nothing from you on how the Republicans tried to stop the Mortgage crisis...Nothing on how we have enough oil in the U.S to keep us supplied for 40 some years...
 
Mark:  You mellow out? Hopefully around your wife but I don't expect it to be around us. 

 

________________________________
Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive. Start uploading now
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From heffling at whidbey.com  Fri Oct 24 00:50:55 2008
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:50:55 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 27
References: <mailman.3.1224784801.96155.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <002101c935a5$9cc01600$2202a8c0@Desktophp>

Hi Julie and all,
You all know way more about all these issues than I do, and yes, in part, 
all are to blame, but I think the truth is much of our current financial 
crisis began by and has  primarily continued from Democrat actions. Not that 
I believe for a minute that Republicans are perfect, nor am I against all 
Democrats. I just keep seeing the Democrat party fall farther from morality 
and be the ones who keep inhibiting important things like a balanced budget, 
moral judges being confirmed, and now their part in our current crisis. So I 
guess for me, it comes down to character and morals which I believe are the 
backbone of our nation. Here's another article to ponder...

'The public cannot be too curious concerning the characters of public 
men.' -Samuel Adams



In his Inaugural Address on 20 January, 1961, President John F. Kennedy 
closed his remarks with these famous words: 'And so, my fellow Americans, 
ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your 
country.'



With those words, JFK, considered by many to be the most exemplary leader of 
the Democrat Party in the 20th Century, asked Americans to put country 
first, a bedrock principle of the Party until the last few decades.



However today, the current slate of Democrats have turned Jack Kennedy's 
national challenge on end, essentially proclaiming, 'ask what your country 
can do for you, not what you can do for your country.'



In 1963, Martin Luther King stood on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial and 
said for all to hear, 'I have a dream that my four children will one day 
live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin 
but by the content of their character.'



Has his dream been realized, or have Democrat leaders divided us up into 
constituency groups, where we are judged by all manner of ethnicity and 
special interests rather than the individual and national character King 
envisioned?



Kennedy and King had it right, but the Democrat Party has squandered their 
great legacy, and betrayed us, moreover enslaving many Americans as 
dependant wards of the state.



This is not the Democrat Party envisioned by Franklin Delano Roosevelt or 
Harry Truman, much less its founder, Thomas Jefferson, who would not 
recognize even the most vestigial elements of his once-noble Party. (This 
dramatic transition is evident in the Democrat Party Platforms from Kennedy 
to Obama.)



When asked why he left the Democrat Party, perhaps the most famous of former 
Democrats said, 'I did not leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party 
left me.' That was Ronald Reagan, who earned the respect and support of an 
enormous number of Democrats during his presidency. His observation, 'the 
Party left me,' has never been more true than today.



For several months, we have heard and observed two presidential candidates, 
centrist Republican John McCain and liberal Democrat Barack Obama. It should 
by now, be obvious to all of us who put our country first, which of these 
candidates possess the high qualities of a statesman, and the prerequisite 
moral and civic virtues for an American president.



Unfortunately, too many of my fellow Americans have difficulty 
distinguishing these qualities.



Every four years, at the peak of presidential election cycles, we're told by 
the talkingheads and the party hacks that 'this election is the most 
important in our lifetimes.' This time, however, they may be right. These 
are indeed perilous times.



Our nation is facing crises on several critical fronts, including an 
historic economic disaster, the resolution of which will require the steady 
hand of a statesman in possession of outstanding character - character that 
has been honed over his lifetime, character that is proven consistent with 
our nation's legacy of liberty and equality.



That reformed Democrat, Ronald Reagan, wrote, 'The character that takes 
command in moments of crucial choices has already been determined by a 
thousand other choices made earlier in seemingly unimportant moments. It has 
been determined by all the 'little' choices of years past - by all those 
times when the voice of conscience was at war with the voice of temptation, 
[which was] whispering the lie that 'it really doesn't matter.' It has been 
determined by all the day-to-day decisions made when life seemed easy and 
crises seemed far away - the decision that, piece by piece, bit by bit, 
developed habits of discipline or of laziness; habits of self-sacrifice or 
self-indulgence; habits of duty and honor and integrity - or dishonor and 
shame.'



For the first and final word on the necessary character traits the next 
president should possess, let's return to our foundation, our Founders, 
those who risked all to proclaim our individual rights and responsibilities 
as ordained by God, and outlined them in our Declaration of Independence and 
its subordinate exposition, our Republic's Constitution.



Our Founders wrote at length about character, both of those who seek high 
office (or, rather, those that high office seeks), and those who elect them. 
Here are but a few excerpts in their own words.



John Adams: 'Children should be educated and instructed in the principles of 
freedom. ... If we suffer [the minds of young people] to grovel and creep in 
infancy, they will grovel all their lives. ... We have no government armed 
with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality 
and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the 
strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our 
Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly 
inadequate to the government of any other. ... We should be unfaithful to 
ourselves if we should ever lose sight of the danger to our liberties if 
anything partial or extraneous should infect the purity of our free, fair, 
virtuous, and independent elections.'



Samuel Adams: 'Nothing is more essential to the establishment of manners in 
a State than that all persons employed in places of power and trust must be 
men of unexceptionable characters. ... If men of wisdom and knowledge, of 
moderation and temperance, of patience, fortitude and perseverance, of 
sobriety and true republican simplicity of manners, of zeal for the honour 
of the Supreme Being and the welfare of the commonwealth; if men possessed 
of these other excellent qualities are chosen to fill the seats of 
government, we may expect that our affairs will rest on a solid and 
permanent foundation. ... [N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest 
laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are 
universally corrupt. ... No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, 
nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and Virtue is 
preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and 
debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without 
the Aid of foreign Invaders. ... Let each citizen remember at the moment he 
is offering his vote that he is not making a present or a compliment to 
please an individual - or at least that he ought not so to do; but that he 
is executing one of the most solemn trusts in human society for which he is 
accountable to God and his country. ... Religion and good morals are the 
only solid foundation of public liberty and happiness.'



Thomas Jefferson: 'It is the manners and spirit of a people which preserve a 
republic in vigor. A degeneracy in these is a canker which soon eats to the 
heart of its laws and constitution. ... If a nation expects to be ignorant - 
and free - in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never 
will be. ... The whole art of government consists in the art of being 
honest. Only aim to do your duty, and mankind will give you credit where you 
fail. ... An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over 
his fellow citizens.'



George Washington: 'No compact among men ... can be pronounced everlasting 
and inviolable, and if I may so express myself, that no Wall of words, that 
no mound of parchment can be so formed as to stand against the sweeping 
torrent of boundless ambition on the one side, aided by the sapping current 
of corrupted morals on the other. ...[A] good moral character is the first 
essential in a man, and that the habits contracted [early in life] are 
generally indelible, and your conduct here may stamp your character through 
life. It is therefore highly important that you should endeavor not only to 
be learned but virtuous. ... The foundations of our national policy will be 
laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality, and the 
preeminence of free government be exemplified by all the attributes which 
can win the affections of its citizens, and command the respect of the 
world. ...[W]here is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if 
the sense of religious obligation deserts the oaths...? Of all the 
dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and 
morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the 
tribute of Patriotism who should labor to subvert these great Pillars of 
human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens.'



At the end of the Revolution, when our Founders were endeavoring 'to form a 
more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide 
for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the 
Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity,' Founding brothers 
Alexander Hamilton and John Jay and our Constitution's author, James 
Madison, wrote The Federalist Papers, its most authentic and comprehensive 
explication.



In Federalist No. 1, Hamilton warned, 'Of those men who have overturned the 
liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by 
paying an obsequious court to the people, commencing demagogues and ending 
tyrants.'



Sound familiar?



In No. 10, Madison cautions, 'Enlightened statesmen will not always be at 
the helm,' and insisted in No. 57, 'The aim of every political Constitution 
is or ought to be first to obtain for rulers, men who possess most wisdom to 
discern, and most virtue to pursue the common good of the society; and in 
the next place, to take the most effectual precautions for keeping them 
virtuous, whilst they continue to hold their public trust.'



Madison's Supreme Court nominee, Justice Joseph Story, wrote, 'Republics are 
created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They 
fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare 
to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the 
people, in order to betray them.'



The Founders thus warned of the perils posed by the candidate who lacks 
political courage; the candidate who tells us everything we want to hear.



In November 1800, John Adams, in his fourth year as president, wrote to his 
wife Abigail, 'I Pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessing on this house, 
and on ALL that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men 
ever rule under this roof!'


We should all pray likewise, now, today, this minute.



As Adams understood, 'A Constitution of Government once changed from 
Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.'



Almost two centuries later, Ronald Reagan reiterated, 'Freedom is ... never 
more than one generation away from extinction. Every generation has to learn 
how to protect and defend it, or it's gone and gone for a long, long time.'



So, what of the current generation of voters, and the two presidential 
candidates?



On 4 November, one of these candidates will receive a majority of electoral 
votes, and in January, be seated as our next president. But for sure, this 
election is much more than a referendum on the two candidates; it is a 
referendum on the ability of Americans to discern between one candidate who 
possesses the character and integrity of a statesman, which the office of 
president requires, and one who does not.



At this pivotal moment in our nation's history, let's hope that a majority 
of us have sufficient courage and character to make that distinction, and 
vote on what we know rather than how we feel.



Let's put country first.


Blessings all, and may God give us wisdom. Oh, and Julie, you're right on- 
we do need to prayer for both sides. Thanks for that reminder.
Grace
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:09:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: JULIE LINDHOLM <lindholmsi at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 25
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Message-ID: <52781.80492.qm at web34708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>
> HI GRACE
>
> this isnt old news, it's just kind of confusing:???
> google? "?freddie mac DCI "
>
> DCI is a?company that influences?senators, as?it's business.? DCI's 
> "product" is?affecting legislation.?????
> among other?unsavory?things.
>
> So this senator (R) Hagel recognized (a few yrs ago) that freddie mac was 
> going to tank and take down a lot of the economy with it.??? He proposed 
> legislation to investigate, and all republicans were for it, and all 
> democrats were against it.???
>
> Like your article says, the dems idea was that it was a good thing to get 
> poor folks into homes (they couldnt afford).?? whoa.
>
> Goodyear (R),?? who ran DCI? - then?McCains' campaign - ???ran a 2 yr 
> "stealth" campaign to buy off republicans so they would not vote for the 
> bill to investigate freddie mac.
>
> it worked: they spent 2 mil over 2 yrs and bought off enough republicans 
> to keep everything status quo with freddie mac.
>
> So.... as obama?stated in the last debate "everyone?is to blame",?? but 
> honestly i think some are to blame more than others.??
> on the freddie mac situation specifically, mccain was never targeted by 
> DCI and he did vote for investigation/reform,? so big score for mccain on 
> that.?
> i cant say why he turned around and hired Goodyear to run his own campaign 
> tho.??
>
> like steve says, the way things are run is?extremely UNrepresentative 
> of?the peoples' needs and wishes... they need to stop the whole routine of 
> buying each other off to?vote some way or other.? it's as old 
> as?"pork?barrel politics" and "dirty politics".?? unlike steve i dont see 
> it as a dem or rep problem -? it's everybody's problem.?
>
> it is a specific (stated) goal of obama to clean up that lobbyist 
> nonsense,? and if he can deliver even somewhat, it's a step in the right 
> direction.? pray.
>
> PS anybody thought of praying for both sides??? or praying for OBL??
>
> just a thought? -? julie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Digest, Vol 57, Issue 27
> ***************************************** 



From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 24 11:44:24 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:44:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] the kids
Message-ID: <281030.46952.qm@web34705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hey? ALL?
?i'm so glad to be in this conversation,?it's?very healthy.???
it's?always?good to hear discussions from the?very right and everyone in between, and i doubt anyone's votes will change, (but i sincerely hope?everybody in our class gets a chance to vote!)??
anyway thank you guys?for always giving me a lot to consider!
?
dan,?good numbers-???the recent UN data updated 4/08 is easy to see on?wikipedia?and we're definitely ahead of all countries in africa, but our real honest comparison?is the rest of the?industrialized world.??
?
the unicef??07 report comparing children in OECD countries (not third world countries) is fascinating.??? and concerning...? 
It compares many?aspects of?life,?and?factors like?how many books / computers / in the home, at school, how many meals eaten with parents per week, amount of time spent in conversation with parents, sense of support by classmates, percent of children who have tried marijuana,?have gotten drunk, pregnant, and of course the usual measures of immunizations, obesity and infant mortality 
?
US infant mortality?is 20th between poland and hungary. 
?
?
material well being measures each country's internal equality/inequality and exclusion/inclusion, not absolute material wealth.? 
ie.?you might have isolating painful poverty in a Phoenix home, but?have a higher household income than a median-income Hungarian?family.???Though "poorer" by absolute standards, the Hungarian middle income home's children have?more relative wealth.? 
(We can l relate to extremes in relative vs. absolute wealth, having been MKs).
?
the 5 dimensions measured were:
Material well being??(relative not absolute)??????????????????
Health and safety????????????????????????????
Educational well-being???????????????????? 
Family and peer relationship???????????? 
Behaviors and risks???????????????????????? 
Subjective well-being?? 
?
We're at or near the bottom?in every category?except education (we are 12th of 21).
?
The problems and solutions are?many-faceted, but governments and policies that support?our vulnerable?people?have formed?our present?situation.? 
?
for the curious:
www.unicef.org/irc?? and go to "research".?? 
2007 is only the 7th report ever, and is a very formative development in compiling useful data that reflects?government policies and funding.? 
?
the children?are the?most dependent?on social programs?-? they are "the least of these", the most vulnerable people of our country.?? ?and our future.? 
?
somebody look at this report and say they care...?maybe i have to mail copies every day to our next batch of leaders...
?
take care all? -? julie


      


From jennyishome at austin.rr.com  Fri Oct 24 12:31:03 2008
From: jennyishome at austin.rr.com (Jenny Holloway)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:31:03 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Old timey cars
In-Reply-To: <mailman.833.1224870280.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.833.1224870280.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <A69CDDA54FEA4A4BAFCF6A70B791F191@gijenn34PC>

Have to paint you a visual picture of Wimberley today. Ok, beautiful weather 
out today here and then we have all these old timey cars driving around the 
town honking theirs horns and the town has kind of stopped and everyone is 
out just watching them and waving. They have started their own parade. We 
need Mel here to take some great pictures. (Hey and check out her website 
what a great one) What a great place to live!! Just wishing my husband was 
here to enjoy it and honey, this might be a new venture for us when you are 
home to stay. Forget the motorcycle and lets get us an old car. hahahha 
Jenny
Jenny and Steve Holloway

http://www.mymangosteen.com/distributors/jholloway/

I am a princess... my Father is the King of Kings!

Stop telling God how big your storm is.......instead
tell your storm HOW BIG YOUR GOD IS!!!!!!!!!! 



From gregorywest at verizon.net  Fri Oct 24 13:28:45 2008
From: gregorywest at verizon.net (gregorywest at verizon.net)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:28:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Stimulus Checks
Message-ID: <9162546.57481224876526175.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>


What does everyone think about the idea of another stimulus check from 
the government? Just throwing another log on the fire to fuel the 
coversation.

Greg


From tory at trwengineering.com  Fri Oct 24 12:33:18 2008
From: tory at trwengineering.com (Tory Walker)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:33:18 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] the kids
In-Reply-To: <281030.46952.qm@web34705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <281030.46952.qm@web34705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008001c93606$fc8f1930$f5ad4b90$@com>

This current discussion on kids and well being reminds me of a study that
was done probably two or three years ago.  Some of you might remember it.
It was supposed to be some measure of happiness or contentment with life.  I
don't know how scientific or objective it was, I just remember how the US
did not fare well compared with some countries that have much less than we
do, but had a higher level of contentment or happiness.  

Paul wrote, "I have learned how to get along happily whether I have much or
little.	I know how to live on almost nothing or with everything. I have
learned the secret of living in every situation, whether it is with a full
stomach or empty, with plenty or little.  For I can do everything with the
help of Christ who gives me the strength I need. (Phil. 4:11-13 NLT)   

In the current financial crisis, I think this is a timely word.

Tory 




From bwanapc at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 13:34:54 2008
From: bwanapc at gmail.com (Jonathan Bainbridge)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:34:54 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Stimulus Checks
In-Reply-To: <9162546.57481224876526175.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>
References: <9162546.57481224876526175.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>
Message-ID: <e04aa3030810241234k6be820abq3a6ce4acb336c398@mail.gmail.com>

Instigator! I like the button pushing. Since Scott's not on the list
right now we need someone to keep it going!

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 2:28 PM, gregorywest at verizon.net
<gregorywest at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> What does everyone think about the idea of another stimulus check from
> the government? Just throwing another log on the fire to fuel the
> coversation.
>
> Greg
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>


From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 24 13:58:06 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:58:06 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 29
In-Reply-To: <mailman.833.1224870280.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.833.1224870280.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W71FD9AA56BC046D57650A882B0@phx.gbl>


Mark ohhhh Mark::
 
Man so much and still so little to say in true words... Saying my party does not care about the poor...no we just have a different philosophy that most people want help to get out of the mess their in and I don't care about your parties message- give them money and keep them down so they will vote for us always.. See your party is POWER hungry -mine is about helping others get up and feel good about themselves.. Like the story of the pigs.... throw out corn in a field and the pigs will come to eat the free food...throw up one side of the fence and the pigs will still come- 2nd side and they will come- 3rd side will be alittle hesitant but will still go to eat- then close them up on 4 sides and all you have is a bunch of lazy pigs that expect free food... Like teach a man how to farm/ fish and they will feed their families for life... So to me its having programs available with consequences- you have to do this and this to earn it...So you are talking about your parties platform-.."Democrats- "We dumb you down for your vote"..
 
Like JFK said Not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country...Now if he was running I would be of an undecided voter today...I could easily have gone democrat and told no one.. 
 
Got a good email about Obama redistrubution plan.... a couple go to eat, pass a homeless man and he had a sign vote for Obama I need money..they are served by a waiter with a Obama button on..When the check comes the man gives the money for the food only and tells the waiter I am going to start following Obamas plan, you see we passed a homeless man and instead of giving you a tip we are going to give it to him..Waiter storm off mad...So what do you have- a man who did nothing to deserve the money compared to a waiter who did everything right...
 
So I see your answering for Julie: So who is Goodyear? And since the press is always right I am always going to say and go back to Barney Franks and the CEO's of Mac and Mae that their was no crisis to be seen....Ohhhh and where are those two---ohhhhh yea Obamas advisors.... And nothing on how Obama is still breaking the federal laws on excepting money from foreigners... 
 
And about your thoughts on 40 years of oil available...Lets see in the last 40 years we have improved our hospitals in technology/ communications(cell phones, gps) transportation, medicines etc...So that has no merits whatsoever- hopefully in 40 years we will have better fuel alternatives- better medicines better health plans... All I know is my dad lived longer because of better medicines and my father in law/mother in law and wifes grandma is alive because scientist did not give up. steve
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Fri Oct 24 15:05:30 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:05:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] fishing versus being fed
Message-ID: <565770.85485.qm@web83107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Steve:

One question for you.  Don't worry.  I don't actually expect an answer because I don't think there is one.  Nevertheless, here's the question.  What exactly is it that the Rebpublican agenda/platform/(whatever you want to call it) includes that is going to teach the poor, or anyone for that matter, how to fish?

Mark
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 24 15:29:45 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:29:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Stimulus Checks
Message-ID: <469738.14521.qm@web34705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

this is how obama's platform sounds to me, adding that?the government has to create work and provide training.

The budget should be balanced, 
the Treasury should be refilled, 
public debt should be reduced, 
the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, 
and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest we become bankrupt.? 
People must learn to work, insteadof living on public assistance.


Cicero 55 BC

well, i have to check the reference, a patient just handed that to me.???????? -julie



      


From gregorywest at verizon.net  Fri Oct 24 16:52:46 2008
From: gregorywest at verizon.net (gregorywest at verizon.net)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:52:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Stimulus Checks
Message-ID: <6178431.2572601224888766518.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>

The other night my friend's clothes dryer broke and he was hating the 
thought of buying another one. I joked with him that it would be a good 
time to get that second stimuls check. They are kind of like eating 
candy or homemade icecream - they taste good at the time, but you may 
end up paying for them later.

Greg


On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Jonathan Bainbridge wrote:

> Instigator! I like the button pushing. Since Scott's not on the list
> right now we need someone to keep it going!
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 2:28 PM, gregorywest at verizon.net
> <gregorywest at verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> What does everyone think about the idea of another stimulus check 
>> from
>> the government? Just throwing another log on the fire to fuel the
>> coversation.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ClassOf80 mailing list
>> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
>> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80


From jgarmes at msn.com  Fri Oct 24 20:29:38 2008
From: jgarmes at msn.com (John Armes)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 20:29:38 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] Stimulus Checks
In-Reply-To: <9162546.57481224876526175.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>
References: <9162546.57481224876526175.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost>
Message-ID: <BLU134-DAV335F7CB1FB86CDCE62E91A02A0@phx.gbl>

I think it is absolutely retarded!!  Sure, I'll take another check and  
spend/invest it as I want, but will that help one bit of good in  
solving some of our economic problems?? Not at all.  Printing money  
without the commodity (gold, silver) to back it exactly is falsehood  
and leads to inflation and distrust of governments and the value of  
goods.  Governments since the Roman era have inflated their currencies  
by doping the coins or clipping the precious metal the coin is  
represent.  Christ in His day spoke against this practice when He  
talked about just weights.  By 1957, all the precious metals in our US  
coins was virtually taken out, but on occasion, one today may find a  
penny, nickel, etc that is far more valuable than  face value because  
the precious metal is still in it.  I think the money will be better  
invested in R & D as incentives for companies rather than giving it to  
the "goofy" pubic so they can buy a new IPOD and the like.  Things are  
bad, but not that bad.  We know this because we've had the benefit of  
living over seas and seeing and surviving on little, something the  
general American public knows little of. BTW, have you notice all the  
people who have stopped driving their gas guzzling SUV's??  I didn't  
think so, ....nor have I.

John
On Oct 24, 2008, at 1:28 PM, gregorywest at verizon.net wrote:

>
> What does everyone think about the idea of another stimulus check from
> the government? Just throwing another log on the fire to fuel the
> coversation.
>
> Greg
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80





From randanallen at juno.com  Fri Oct 24 20:41:21 2008
From: randanallen at juno.com (randanallen at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:41:21 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] fishing versus being fed
Message-ID: <20081024.214122.5688.1.randanallen@juno.com>

I'm not Steve! 

But I would like to answer.  This is my 24th year of teaching and I am
more convinced than ever that education (schooling) is not the answer to
our societal problems. Everything goes back to family. However you want
to measure success, it usually comes to those who have had love and
support from family of some sort.  From elementary school kids to
presidential candidates it is usually the case.  Now, the party that
figures out how to help families do that for real........... I'll support
it.

Randy

On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Mark Sharp
<msharp01 at ameritech.net> writes:
Steve:

One question for you.  Don't worry.  I don't actually expect an answer
because I don't think there is one.  Nevertheless, here's the question. 
What exactly is it that the Rebpublican agenda/platform/(whatever you
want to call it) includes that is going to teach the poor, or anyone for
that matter, how to fish?

Mark
____________________________________________________________
Fly cheap!  Click here for great airfare deals.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nMQlUl0q054xz2EARImHc06TS9bpJesXRm2ne4qMWnunWij/
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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 24 21:37:59 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 22:37:59 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30
In-Reply-To: <mailman.835.1224902578.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.835.1224902578.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W32FBD6EF47B8DBB749497E882A0@phx.gbl>


Well Mark you asked and I must tell you "Get off you lazy butt and work for it"  Its sure not "give without consequences" or "be unproductive and we will take care of you" But for you in terms you might understand "less government intervention" or ''Smaller government is the best" 
 
How marriage been for you so far? Hope your enjoying it as much as I do... 
 
Randy: thanks for telling everybody were not the same. Don't want anyone thinking we think alike.Julie: Please no big government- they are not my big brother. I am fully capable of taking care of myself and don't need it to tell me what to do. We don't live in Cuba or North Korea. As for Obama platform he has not said anything to what you wish...His is change but thats similar to McCain's being a MAVERICK... 
 
Greg: Yes more money- maybe I can put my hand in their and grab what I don't need... There should be some money somewhere for a middle age white american that grew up in the dark jungles of Africa that was deprived of big Macs, whataburgers, blue bell ice cream and professional sports...
 
Another thing to all; Did you hear about the Speaker of the House- whats her name- well her husband has 17 MILLION bucks worth of stock in Starkist that has a production plant in the American Soma Islands.. Guess what she did- out of the 700 Billion she earmarked 33 Million to Starkist. Talk about helping us. Politics as usal for her and her cronies..
 
Honey: NO and I mean NO...and I say that with alot of love... steve
 
 
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008
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From energynorm at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 24 21:56:05 2008
From: energynorm at yahoo.com (Stormin' Norman)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 20:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Stimulus Checks, Cicero 55bc & $13 Billion
In-Reply-To: <469738.14521.qm@web34705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <193908.54851.qm@web34802.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

See below on verification of Cicero.
?
My only comment on the Stimulus is it adds $140 billion of debt to our kids who never voted for it.? Ditto for the war in Iraq and Afganistan - estimated at $3billion life cycle (US GDP is 13 Bill and total deficit is 11B+this year).? Lets split the price tag and each mail in a check for?$30,000.? Then we can vote on the next stimulus and war.? 
?
That said and done, i still backed the $700 billion bail-out as it stopped the wealthy Arabs (the real terrorists)?from buying?US financials for pennies on the dollar (except indirectly as they own the T-bills).? Maybe not all problems can be solved on a postcard?
?
- Stormin
?
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/cicero-plan.htm
?





The actual quote is:?? "The arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and assistance to foreign hands should be curtailed, lest Rome fall." 
updated 10/08/08



A real example of the eRumor as it has appeared on the Internet:

?The budget should be balanced, the treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.? -- Cicero , 55 B.C. 

--- On Fri, 10/24/08, JULIE LINDHOLM <lindholmsi at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: JULIE LINDHOLM <lindholmsi at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Stimulus Checks
To: "RVA class of '80" <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Date: Friday, October 24, 2008, 4:29 PM

this is how obama's platform sounds to me, adding that?the government has
to create work and provide training.

The budget should be balanced, 
the Treasury should be refilled, 
public debt should be reduced, 
the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, 
and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest we become
bankrupt.? 
People must learn to work, insteadof living on public assistance.


Cicero 55 BC

well, i have to check the reference, a patient just handed that to
me.???????? -julie



      

_______________________________________________
ClassOf80 mailing list
ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Fri Oct 24 23:02:49 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 22:02:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30
Message-ID: <946194.44261.qm@web83102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Steve.  I only asked the question because you invoked the "give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach him how to fish, feed him for a lifetime" as a value you share with the republican party (perhaps I misread that).  I absolutely agree with you.  I also agree that people should be expected to work and support should require that people take some personal responsibility.  There is way too much buying into a victim mentality in this country and some Dems support those ideas - certainly more than Republicans.  I just thought you indicated that "teaching someone to fish" was a good thing for government to do.  I can't equate that with "get off your lazy butt and work."  I'm still interested in knowing if you value teaching someone to fish.

I'm still amused by the goings on.  Republicans are for smaller government and fiscal responsibility.  However, the only president to balance a budget and have a surplus in the last thirty years was a Democrat (Bill Clinton).  

I also find it amusing that people have been invoking the name of JFK as an inspiration and someone who got it right.  I happen to agree, but it is amusing to see people who focus on "morality" do that as JFK had a very Clinton like habit of sticking his penis where it didn't belong.

By the way - married life is fabulous.  Tomorrow is my two week anniversary - woo hoo.

Mark



----- Original Message ----
From: Stephen M H <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com>
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 10:37:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 30

 Well Mark you asked and I must tell you "Get off you lazy butt and work for it"  Its sure not "give without consequences" or "be unproductive and we will take care of you" But for you in terms you might understand "less government intervention" or ''Smaller government is the best" 


 

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From heffling at whidbey.com  Sat Oct 25 00:40:17 2008
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 23:40:17 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 29
References: <mailman.833.1224870280.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <004b01c9366d$4acaa720$2202a8c0@Desktophp>

Mark and all,
I do agree w/ you that "it's time to stop pointing fingers ( tho' I did do 
so ) and get together and figure out how to get us out of the mess we're 
in." Except that, where there has been fraud or wrong doing, that should get 
consequences to keep it from continuing.
Here's another article that lends some credence ( perhaps) to some things I 
said weeks ago regarding Obama.

Warning from Christian Missionaries in Kenya

The international news services are now feeding stories to America that 
Europe is smitten with Obama mania. I personally saw a report yesterday 
where a French news anchor was saying that she and others were committed to 
Obama and felt Europeans should be allowed to vote in American Presidential 
elections because of the effect our elections have on Europe. She was 
serious.

The internationally read Investors Business Daily is not smitten with Obama, 
but they are very concerned about the possibility of his becoming President 
of the United States. In fact, they have been very candid about their 
concerns saying , "There is too much at stake to continue mincing words."

A couple of months ago they wrote an article titled, "Barack Obama's Stealth 
Socialism," making a reasoned and documented case that Obama is in fact a 
socialist. They reported the socialist influences he has embraced in his 
journey of self discovery, including the influence of his socialist leaning 
father. They point out that in his book dedicated to the memory of his 
father, he never once mentions his father's well known and documented 
political activities in Kenya.

IBD says, "In Kenya's recent civil unrest, Obama privately phoned the leader 
of the opposition "Luo" tribe, Raila Odinga, to voice support. Odinga is so 
committed to communism he named his oldest son after Fidel Castro."

They say Obama has been "in an orbit of collectivism that runs from from 
Nairobi to Honolulu, and on through Chicago to Washington."

The article is very good and I highly recommend you read it.

Yesterday I received an email that was sent from missionaries in Kenya. They 
too are very concerned. And very close to Obama's family tribe.

Some of you know that I have spent a number of years building churches, 
schools and hospitals in third world and emerging countries, including 
Kenya. Specifically, western Kenya. I have lived and worked with the people 
of that area. Kenya has been a relatively stable country since it's 
independence, until recent years. Very recently, after years of agitating 
and advocating for civil unrest by a minority, political unrest has boiled 
over with thousands of people being slaughtered and hurt. At the heart of 
the uprising is a man named Odinga from a village that I am very familiar 
with and with which we can have contact.

There are those in Africa, particularly in western Kenya, who sincerely 
believe young Barack Obama was born in the village of his father, not 
Honolulu. I don't know personally. The time I spent in that area was after 
his birth. Some who believe this, also believe that Obama's trip to see his 
ailing grandmother is also for the purpose of collecting documents that 
could disprove the birth certificate that he has produced as evidence of his 
being born in Honolulu. I don't know about this personally. However, there 
are those who are deeply committed to exposing what they believe to be true.

I am going to share a portion of an email from missionaries in Kenya. Parts 
of it will be omitted for obvious reasons. We do not want to put them in 
harms way. I know their names but will not share them or specifically which 
village they live in or anything else I feel would not be in their best 
interest.

In their own words:

"Regarding Obama: We are living and working in Kenya and know his family 
(tribe) well. They are the ones who were behind the recent Presidential 
election chaos here. Thousands of people have been displaced by election 
violence (over 350,000) and I don't know the last count of the dead."

"Obama, under 'friends of Obama' gave almost a million dollars to the 
opposition campaign who just happened to be his cousin, Raila Odinga, who is 
a socialist trained in east Germany. He has been trying to bring Kenya down 
for years and the last president threw him in prison for trying to subvert 
this country! December 27th elections brought cries from ODM (Odinga Camp) 
of rigged election. Obama and Raila speak daily. As we watch Obama rise in 
the U.S. we are sure that whatever happens, he will use the same tactic, 
crying rigged election if he doesn't win, and possibly cause a race war in 
America."

"What we would like you to know is what the American press has been keeping 
a secret. Obama IS a Muslim and he IS a racist and this is a fulfillment of 
the 9-11 threat that was just the beginning. Jihad is the only true Muslim 
way. We have been working with them for 20 years this July! He is not an 
American as we know it. Please encourage your friends and associates not to 
be taken in by those that are promoting him. It is world wide jihad. All our 
friends in Europe are very disturbed by the Muslim infiltration into their 
countries. By the way, his true name is Barak Hussein Muhammed Obama."

"Pray for us here in Kenya. We are still fighting for our nation to 
withstand the same kind of assault that every nation, including America, is 
fighting. Takeover from the outside to fit the new world order. As 
believers, this means we will be the first targets. Here in Kenya, not one 
mosque was burned down, but hundreds of churches were burned down, some with 
people in them, burned alive. Jesus Christ is our peace, but the new world 
order of Globalism has infiltrated the church and confused believers into 
thinking that they can compromise and survive. It won't be so. "
Love, ( missionaries)

Friends of Faith and Freedom, our country is staggering toward self 
destruction. If you have not read the letter I posted yesterday from "A 
Christian in Obama's America in 2012," created by Focus on the Family, 
please read it.

__________________


Gary Randall
President
Faith and Family Network

Blessings all,
 and yes, it's good to hear other's views.
Grace






















> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:34:03 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 26
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Message-ID: <48209.29467.qm at web83107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Steve, Steve, Steve:
>
> You do make me think of some of the more humorous recent developments in 
> the electoral process.  With regard to "Nothing from you on how the 
> Republicans tried to stop the Mortgage crisis" given to Julie - you really 
> ought to read her emails before you toss out such statements.  But the 
> statement itself is interesting and how it grew to something people are 
> actually talking about is laughable.  First people started blaming the 
> mortgage crisis on the dems pushing to loosen up the sub prime loans so 
> more poor people could get loans to buy houses.  That is true and 
> certainly is a factor in the crisis - but the way it built from there is 
> laughable.  That happened in the late 90s and there was a dem in the white 
> house.  Of course republicans wouldn't support that because they don't 
> give a s**t about poor people and were afraid it might take away from 
> their wealth.  Nevertheless, it passed.  Then banks figured out they could 
> make a lot of money off of it.  I
> believe if you actually paid attention to the crisis you know that it 
> wasn't just Fannie and Freddie, there were a lot of banks involved.  Lots 
> of them jumped on the subprime bandwagon.  The nice things about subprimes 
> is that you can charge higher interest rates.  It even got to the point 
> where some banks were writing sub prime loans for people who could qualify 
> for better rates - more money into the bank coffers.  And with the ever 
> and rapidly expanding value of the housing market, there wasn't really 
> that much risk.  Equity was growing faster than debt so the banks weren't 
> really taking on that much risk - they loved the sub primes.  Then they 
> started slicing and dicing them in lots of wonderful ways (result of 
> deregulation in the securities market, which I really have a very poor 
> understanding of, but I think most people do and that is part of the 
> problem) and everybody was making so much money it was a great party.  The 
> only problem was that it
> depended on the everexpanding housing market and well, we know what 
> happened there.  There is lots of blame to go around.  The big problem is 
> that most of the nation bought into the idea of the possibiltiy of ever 
> expanding growth, the idea that greed is good, and the idea that 
> regulation, particularly government regulation, is bad.  There is a lot of 
> blame to go around, so much that I don't think it even makes sense to try 
> to point fingers.  We all ought to just get together and figure out what 
> to do with the mess we have.
>
> The second thing that I have been amused by lately is all the talk about 
> Obama being a socialist (I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up on this 
> list).  It is so amusing since the current Republican administration has 
> just taken on the biggest socialist project since the early 20th century 
> by functionally nationalizing a good portion of our financial system.  Oh 
> wait - they didn't really nationalize it because they still believe 
> regulation is bad and how banks are going to be regulated is still up in 
> the air.  The republicans still think regulation is bad (though I know 
> McCain has changed his tune on that a bit in the past couple of months - 
> Mr. "our economy is strong" himself) and think bailing out the banks will 
> make things work OK.  That is kind of like continually writing out 
> thousand dollar checks to your drug addicted twenty five year old son and 
> assuming that with each of them he will actually put a deposit on an 
> apartment and buy a nice set of
> job interview clothes.
>
> And I'm really not sure what your point is about the US having enough oil 
> to supply us for 40 years.  That doesn't seem to long to me.  I will 
> likely not make it that long (the life expectancy for an american man 
> being 75 years, which comes in about thirty years for me) but there are a 
> lot of kids and other young people I care about who should still be alive 
> at that time.  And the oil gets harder and harder to extract the less 
> there is.  My guess in some way it is a jab about offshore drilling. 
> Offshore drilling is really a red herring.  The oil companies have 
> drilling leases on millions of acres of oil covering land that they 
> already aren't drilling - why don't they start there.
>
> Thanks for emphasizing the idiocy of what's going on in our politics.  It 
> is certainly worth a laugh
>
> Mark
>
>
> 


From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 25 06:28:52 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 05:28:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] faith and freedom network?
Message-ID: <139653.26239.qm@web34704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

grace is it the same gary randall of faith and freedom network in oregon??? do you know where you got that? 
if this is the same guy, they are a judeo-christian lobbyist organization.

lobbying is the business of?influencing legislation...our government?is run?by people persuading politicians.

not that every interest doesnt have a right to stump for their cause.?? 

it's just... call it what it is, election politics...?fear mongering got us into iraq in the first place.??? - julie



?


----- Original Message ----
From: Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com>
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:40:17 PM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 29

Mark and all,
I do agree w/ you that "it's time to stop pointing fingers ( tho' I did do 
so ) and get together and figure out how to get us out of the mess we're 
in." Except that, where there has been fraud or wrong doing, that should get 
consequences to keep it from continuing.
Here's another article that lends some credence ( perhaps) to some things I 
said weeks ago regarding Obama.

Warning from Christian Missionaries in Kenya

The international news services are now feeding stories to America that 
Europe is smitten with Obama mania. I personally saw a report yesterday 
where a French news anchor was saying that she and others were committed to 
Obama and felt Europeans should be allowed to vote in American Presidential 
elections because of the effect our elections have on Europe. She was 
serious.

The internationally read Investors Business Daily is not smitten with Obama, 
but they are very concerned about the possibility of his becoming President 
of the United States. In fact, they have been very candid about their 
concerns saying , "There is too much at stake to continue mincing words."

A couple of months ago they wrote an article titled, "Barack Obama's Stealth 
Socialism," making a reasoned and documented case that Obama is in fact a 
socialist. They reported the socialist influences he has embraced in his 
journey of self discovery, including the influence of his socialist leaning 
father. They point out that in his book dedicated to the memory of his 
father, he never once mentions his father's well known and documented 
political activities in Kenya.

IBD says, "In Kenya's recent civil unrest, Obama privately phoned the leader 
of the opposition "Luo" tribe, Raila Odinga, to voice support. Odinga is so 
committed to communism he named his oldest son after Fidel Castro."

They say Obama has been "in an orbit of collectivism that runs from from 
Nairobi to Honolulu, and on through Chicago to Washington."

The article is very good and I highly recommend you read it.

Yesterday I received an email that was sent from missionaries in Kenya. They 
too are very concerned. And very close to Obama's family tribe.

Some of you know that I have spent a number of years building churches, 
schools and hospitals in third world and emerging countries, including 
Kenya. Specifically, western Kenya. I have lived and worked with the people 
of that area. Kenya has been a relatively stable country since it's 
independence, until recent years. Very recently, after years of agitating 
and advocating for civil unrest by a minority, political unrest has boiled 
over with thousands of people being slaughtered and hurt. At the heart of 
the uprising is a man named Odinga from a village that I am very familiar 
with and with which we can have contact.

There are those in Africa, particularly in western Kenya, who sincerely 
believe young Barack Obama was born in the village of his father, not 
Honolulu. I don't know personally. The time I spent in that area was after 
his birth. Some who believe this, also believe that Obama's trip to see his 
ailing grandmother is also for the purpose of collecting documents that 
could disprove the birth certificate that he has produced as evidence of his 
being born in Honolulu. I don't know about this personally. However, there 
are those who are deeply committed to exposing what they believe to be true.

I am going to share a portion of an email from missionaries in Kenya. Parts 
of it will be omitted for obvious reasons. We do not want to put them in 
harms way. I know their names but will not share them or specifically which 
village they live in or anything else I feel would not be in their best 
interest.

In their own words:

"Regarding Obama: We are living and working in Kenya and know his family 
(tribe) well. They are the ones who were behind the recent Presidential 
election chaos here. Thousands of people have been displaced by election 
violence (over 350,000) and I don't know the last count of the dead."

"Obama, under 'friends of Obama' gave almost a million dollars to the 
opposition campaign who just happened to be his cousin, Raila Odinga, who is 
a socialist trained in east Germany. He has been trying to bring Kenya down 
for years and the last president threw him in prison for trying to subvert 
this country! December 27th elections brought cries from ODM (Odinga Camp) 
of rigged election. Obama and Raila speak daily. As we watch Obama rise in 
the U.S. we are sure that whatever happens, he will use the same tactic, 
crying rigged election if he doesn't win, and possibly cause a race war in 
America."

"What we would like you to know is what the American press has been keeping 
a secret. Obama IS a Muslim and he IS a racist and this is a fulfillment of 
the 9-11 threat that was just the beginning. Jihad is the only true Muslim 
way. We have been working with them for 20 years this July! He is not an 
American as we know it. Please encourage your friends and associates not to 
be taken in by those that are promoting him. It is world wide jihad. All our 
friends in Europe are very disturbed by the Muslim infiltration into their 
countries. By the way, his true name is Barak Hussein Muhammed Obama."

"Pray for us here in Kenya. We are still fighting for our nation to 
withstand the same kind of assault that every nation, including America, is 
fighting. Takeover from the outside to fit the new world order. As 
believers, this means we will be the first targets. Here in Kenya, not one 
mosque was burned down, but hundreds of churches were burned down, some with 
people in them, burned alive. Jesus Christ is our peace, but the new world 
order of Globalism has infiltrated the church and confused believers into 
thinking that they can compromise and survive. It won't be so. "
Love, ( missionaries)

Friends of Faith and Freedom, our country is staggering toward self 
destruction. If you have not read the letter I posted yesterday from "A 
Christian in Obama's America in 2012," created by Focus on the Family, 
please read it.

__________________


Gary Randall
President
Faith and Family Network

Blessings all,
and yes, it's good to hear other's views.
Grace






















> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:34:03 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 26
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Message-ID: <48209.29467.qm at web83107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Steve, Steve, Steve:
>
> You do make me think of some of the more humorous recent developments in 
> the electoral process.? With regard to "Nothing from you on how the 
> Republicans tried to stop the Mortgage crisis" given to Julie - you really 
> ought to read her emails before you toss out such statements.? But the 
> statement itself is interesting and how it grew to something people are 
> actually talking about is laughable.? First people started blaming the 
> mortgage crisis on the dems pushing to loosen up the sub prime loans so 
> more poor people could get loans to buy houses.? That is true and 
> certainly is a factor in the crisis - but the way it built from there is 
> laughable.? That happened in the late 90s and there was a dem in the white 
> house.? Of course republicans wouldn't support that because they don't 
> give a s**t about poor people and were afraid it might take away from 
> their wealth.? Nevertheless, it passed.? Then banks figured out they could 
> make a lot of money off of it.? I
> believe if you actually paid attention to the crisis you know that it 
> wasn't just Fannie and Freddie, there were a lot of banks involved.? Lots 
> of them jumped on the subprime bandwagon.? The nice things about subprimes 
> is that you can charge higher interest rates.? It even got to the point 
> where some banks were writing sub prime loans for people who could qualify 
> for better rates - more money into the bank coffers.? And with the ever 
> and rapidly expanding value of the housing market, there wasn't really 
> that much risk.? Equity was growing faster than debt so the banks weren't 
> really taking on that much risk - they loved the sub primes.? Then they 
> started slicing and dicing them in lots of wonderful ways (result of 
> deregulation in the securities market, which I really have a very poor 
> understanding of, but I think most people do and that is part of the 
> problem) and everybody was making so much money it was a great party.? The 
> only problem was that it
> depended on the everexpanding housing market and well, we know what 
> happened there.? There is lots of blame to go around.? The big problem is 
> that most of the nation bought into the idea of the possibiltiy of ever 
> expanding growth, the idea that greed is good, and the idea that 
> regulation, particularly government regulation, is bad.? There is a lot of 
> blame to go around, so much that I don't think it even makes sense to try 
> to point fingers.? We all ought to just get together and figure out what 
> to do with the mess we have.
>
> The second thing that I have been amused by lately is all the talk about 
> Obama being a socialist (I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up on this 
> list).? It is so amusing since the current Republican administration has 
> just taken on the biggest socialist project since the early 20th century 
> by functionally nationalizing a good portion of our financial system.? Oh 
> wait - they didn't really nationalize it because they still believe 
> regulation is bad and how banks are going to be regulated is still up in 
> the air.? The republicans still think regulation is bad (though I know 
> McCain has changed his tune on that a bit in the past couple of months - 
> Mr. "our economy is strong" himself) and think bailing out the banks will 
> make things work OK.? That is kind of like continually writing out 
> thousand dollar checks to your drug addicted twenty five year old son and 
> assuming that with each of them he will actually put a deposit on an 
> apartment and buy a nice set of
> job interview clothes.
>
> And I'm really not sure what your point is about the US having enough oil 
> to supply us for 40 years.? That doesn't seem to long to me.? I will 
> likely not make it that long (the life expectancy for an american man 
> being 75 years, which comes in about thirty years for me) but there are a 
> lot of kids and other young people I care about who should still be alive 
> at that time.? And the oil gets harder and harder to extract the less 
> there is.? My guess in some way it is a jab about offshore drilling. 
> Offshore drilling is really a red herring.? The oil companies have 
> drilling leases on millions of acres of oil covering land that they 
> already aren't drilling - why don't they start there.
>
> Thanks for emphasizing the idiocy of what's going on in our politics.? It 
> is certainly worth a laugh
>
> Mark
>
>
> 

_______________________________________________
ClassOf80 mailing list
ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80



      


From joyce_maxwell at comcast.net  Sat Oct 25 09:53:16 2008
From: joyce_maxwell at comcast.net (Joyce Maxwell)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:53:16 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 29
In-Reply-To: <004b01c9366d$4acaa720$2202a8c0@Desktophp>
References: <mailman.833.1224870280.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
	<004b01c9366d$4acaa720$2202a8c0@Desktophp>
Message-ID: <084740EF01B5464F919764F8A2AA567A@MimituPC>

Grace, part of the article you sent comes from Loren Davis Ministries, the 
ministry of Loren and Celeste Davis, a couple that has been doing evangelism 
in East Africa for a long time. (See 
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/kenya.asp for a copy of their letter, 
and Snopes analysis of it.) They have quite a well-developed web site that 
you find by googling Loren Davis. Personally, I find that their work is 
well-intentioned, but when you read some of Loren's articles (for example 
http://lorendavis.com/news_articles_trouble.html), it sounds a lot like a 
narrow-minded rant full of fear and conspiracy.

Peter, since you do a lot of evangelism in Western Kenya, and surely rub 
shoulders with many Luos who are keenly interested in what is happening in 
American politics, you could comment on how you see the situation. Have you 
met the Davises?

Joyce

__________________________
> In their own words:
>
> "What we would like you to know is what the American press has been 
> keeping
> a secret. Obama IS a Muslim and he IS a racist and this is a fulfillment 
> of
> the 9-11 threat that was just the beginning. Jihad is the only true Muslim
> way. We have been working with them for 20 years this July! He is not an
> American as we know it. Please encourage your friends and associates not 
> to
> be taken in by those that are promoting him. It is world wide jihad. All 
> our
> friends in Europe are very disturbed by the Muslim infiltration into their
> countries. By the way, his true name is Barak Hussein Muhammed Obama."
________________________ 



From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Sat Oct 25 11:15:03 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:15:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fear, Islam, and Obama
Message-ID: <459687.3107.qm@web83105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello all:

First.  Thanks Joyce for your recent post.  I found it most interesting and informative.

The whole Islam thing seems to be a big issue for many and I think the fear that Islam generates in many people is unfortunate and contributes to the rise of Islamic extremism (which I think most if not all reasonable people think needs to be wiped out).  I really want to make a plug for those of you who are concerned about this to read the book that Gene recommended a couple of months ago, Acts of Faith by Eboo Patel.  Some disclaimers.  If you believe your Christianity requires you to not develop personal relationships with members of other faiths and you won't be able to see value in them until they convert - don't bother reading it.  I just finished and found it to be one of the most inspirational books I read this year.  I talked earlier about the patriotic picture in it that I was impressed by and the last chapter made me think that perhaps there is more value in Christianity than I have given it credit for recently (remember that this book is by a
 muslim).  If there were more Christians like Eboo is a muslim I might still carry that label myself.

Just ten more days until you guys can start tho Obama bashing and talking about how badly he is screwing up the country (even though he won't officially take over until January).

Mark
-------------- next part --------------
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Sat Oct 25 11:18:11 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Fw: Fwd: GREAT story
Message-ID: <178500.90095.qm@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thought I would post some positive Obama propaganda.  






Mark & Debbi
From the header it appears that Janet did not include you in the list of people to whom she forwarded this, so I thought it might be of interest to you.
[Perhaps it will be a factor in my decision on my presidential vote  --  though I find it difficult to accept Obama's views on abortion and the definition of marriage.]
[There are also some things I don't like about McCain.]
--
Jim & Dorothy Sharp 
8704 Trapper Lane 
Knoxville TN 37931-4258 
Phone: 865 670-3998 
email: shar8044 at bellsouth.net
 



-----Original Message----- 
From: Leah Brandon 





A dance teacher from Florida sent me this today ? it is HER experience. 

  

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:42:35 +0000 

     Yesterday, October, 21, 2008, Barack Obama came to visit Lake 
Worth, at Palm Beach Community College.  My daughter, who has spina 
bifida and is a wheelchair-bound paraplegic, attends school there.  She 
was awaiting his arrival in front of a long line of other people.  When 
he arrived, she was able to see him get out of his vehicle.  The next 
thing she knew the crowd engulfed her and pushed her out of the way so 
they could get close to Mr.Obama.  Somehow, with everything else 
Mr.Obama had on his mind at this busy time, he was attentive to the 
situation.  

     My daughter said, "He (Mr. Obama) grabbed me from the crowd and 
pulled me away from all of the people who were pushing me out of the 
way.  He hugged me and whispered in my ear, "When I become president 
things will be better for you."  She told me that she was so 
overwhelmed all she could do was cry.  Then he hugged her again, and 
personally wheeled her wheelchair into the building, gave her two 
t-shirts and instructed the secret service to assist her to the VIP 
section, which is where she sat to watch the speech.  

     I called everyone I know and shared this touching story because it 
speaks volumes to me, much more than any campaign speech, commercial, 
or debate. We were lucky enough to have a personal experience with 
Barack Obama, the man...the human. 

     I am so overwhelmed that he was perceptive enough to observe what 
was happening to my daughter (as she was being swallowed by the 
thoughtless crowd) and that he took the time to remedy the situation 
(even though he was running late that very busy day.) 

     This gave me insight into the type of person he is in everyday 
life.  He didn't have to go into the crowd and save her, he could have 
pretended he didn't see her and go about his business, or he could have 
instructed the secret service to help her.  But, he didn't.  He took 
his time and made a difference...right there...right then...no fancy 
campaign speech, no media coverage...just his true essence, shinning 
through, with an incredible act of kindness that one Tuesday Morning.  
I felt compelled to share this story with others, so they too, can get 
a glimpse of the inner essence of this man.  It is not often we have 
the opportunity to see the true nature of a person making a spontaneous 
choice  in a difficult situation.  Mr. Obama's choice lets me know that 
he is attentive to his environment, willing to get involved, 
compassionate, and will make a change...even in the seemingly small 
problems of everyday life.  

     Barack Obama, won our hearts, because of this seemingly simple act 
of kindness to our daughter who was being swallowed by a thoughtless 
crowd. 

     If he would stand up for her like he did, I now believe without 
ANY doubt he would stand up for this country and do the right thing.  
Mr. Obama you have my vote.  You touched us beyond what I can express 
with mere words. 

  

Dawn Leacock 

  

Please share our story...pass it on............................. 

         

  

  

Leah Brandon 

Managing Director 

866-692-5678 

NYC Dance Alliance 

Onstage New York 

NYC Theatrical Events 

Lanteri NY 
-------------- next part --------------
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From heffling at whidbey.com  Sat Oct 25 12:09:35 2008
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:09:35 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 32
References: <mailman.854.1224955104.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <000701c936cc$daa2a410$2202a8c0@Desktophp>

Julie, I don't know for sure where Gary Randall is, but I'm guessing your 
assessment is correct. Joyce, thanks for the added information. Peter, I 
too, would love to hear your perspective from Kenya.
Blessings all,
Grace
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org>
To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 10:18 AM
Subject: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 32


> Send ClassOf80 mailing list submissions to
> classof80 at rvaalumni.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> classof80-request at rvaalumni.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> classof80-owner at rvaalumni.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ClassOf80 digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: faith and freedom network? (JULIE LINDHOLM)
>   2. Re: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 29 (Joyce Maxwell)
>   3. Fear, Islam, and Obama (Mark Sharp)
>   4. Fw: Fwd: GREAT story (Mark Sharp)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 05:28:52 -0700 (PDT)
> From: JULIE LINDHOLM <lindholmsi at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] faith and freedom network?
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Message-ID: <139653.26239.qm at web34704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> grace is it the same gary randall of faith and freedom network in 
> oregon??? do you know where you got that?
> if this is the same guy, they are a judeo-christian lobbyist organization.
>
> lobbying is the business of?influencing legislation...our government?is 
> run?by people persuading politicians.
>
> not that every interest doesnt have a right to stump for their cause.??
>
> it's just... call it what it is, election politics...?fear mongering got 
> us into iraq in the first place.??? - julie
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Hefflingers <heffling at whidbey.com>
> To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:40:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 29
>
> Mark and all,
> I do agree w/ you that "it's time to stop pointing fingers ( tho' I did do
> so ) and get together and figure out how to get us out of the mess we're
> in." Except that, where there has been fraud or wrong doing, that should 
> get
> consequences to keep it from continuing.
> Here's another article that lends some credence ( perhaps) to some things 
> I
> said weeks ago regarding Obama.
>
> Warning from Christian Missionaries in Kenya
>
> The international news services are now feeding stories to America that
> Europe is smitten with Obama mania. I personally saw a report yesterday
> where a French news anchor was saying that she and others were committed 
> to
> Obama and felt Europeans should be allowed to vote in American 
> Presidential
> elections because of the effect our elections have on Europe. She was
> serious.
>
> The internationally read Investors Business Daily is not smitten with 
> Obama,
> but they are very concerned about the possibility of his becoming 
> President
> of the United States. In fact, they have been very candid about their
> concerns saying , "There is too much at stake to continue mincing words."
>
> A couple of months ago they wrote an article titled, "Barack Obama's 
> Stealth
> Socialism," making a reasoned and documented case that Obama is in fact a
> socialist. They reported the socialist influences he has embraced in his
> journey of self discovery, including the influence of his socialist 
> leaning
> father. They point out that in his book dedicated to the memory of his
> father, he never once mentions his father's well known and documented
> political activities in Kenya.
>
> IBD says, "In Kenya's recent civil unrest, Obama privately phoned the 
> leader
> of the opposition "Luo" tribe, Raila Odinga, to voice support. Odinga is 
> so
> committed to communism he named his oldest son after Fidel Castro."
>
> They say Obama has been "in an orbit of collectivism that runs from from
> Nairobi to Honolulu, and on through Chicago to Washington."
>
> The article is very good and I highly recommend you read it.
>
> Yesterday I received an email that was sent from missionaries in Kenya. 
> They
> too are very concerned. And very close to Obama's family tribe.
>
> Some of you know that I have spent a number of years building churches,
> schools and hospitals in third world and emerging countries, including
> Kenya. Specifically, western Kenya. I have lived and worked with the 
> people
> of that area. Kenya has been a relatively stable country since it's
> independence, until recent years. Very recently, after years of agitating
> and advocating for civil unrest by a minority, political unrest has boiled
> over with thousands of people being slaughtered and hurt. At the heart of
> the uprising is a man named Odinga from a village that I am very familiar
> with and with which we can have contact.
>
> There are those in Africa, particularly in western Kenya, who sincerely
> believe young Barack Obama was born in the village of his father, not
> Honolulu. I don't know personally. The time I spent in that area was after
> his birth. Some who believe this, also believe that Obama's trip to see 
> his
> ailing grandmother is also for the purpose of collecting documents that
> could disprove the birth certificate that he has produced as evidence of 
> his
> being born in Honolulu. I don't know about this personally. However, there
> are those who are deeply committed to exposing what they believe to be 
> true.
>
> I am going to share a portion of an email from missionaries in Kenya. 
> Parts
> of it will be omitted for obvious reasons. We do not want to put them in
> harms way. I know their names but will not share them or specifically 
> which
> village they live in or anything else I feel would not be in their best
> interest.
>
> In their own words:
>
> "Regarding Obama: We are living and working in Kenya and know his family
> (tribe) well. They are the ones who were behind the recent Presidential
> election chaos here. Thousands of people have been displaced by election
> violence (over 350,000) and I don't know the last count of the dead."
>
> "Obama, under 'friends of Obama' gave almost a million dollars to the
> opposition campaign who just happened to be his cousin, Raila Odinga, who 
> is
> a socialist trained in east Germany. He has been trying to bring Kenya 
> down
> for years and the last president threw him in prison for trying to subvert
> this country! December 27th elections brought cries from ODM (Odinga Camp)
> of rigged election. Obama and Raila speak daily. As we watch Obama rise in
> the U.S. we are sure that whatever happens, he will use the same tactic,
> crying rigged election if he doesn't win, and possibly cause a race war in
> America."
>
> "What we would like you to know is what the American press has been 
> keeping
> a secret. Obama IS a Muslim and he IS a racist and this is a fulfillment 
> of
> the 9-11 threat that was just the beginning. Jihad is the only true Muslim
> way. We have been working with them for 20 years this July! He is not an
> American as we know it. Please encourage your friends and associates not 
> to
> be taken in by those that are promoting him. It is world wide jihad. All 
> our
> friends in Europe are very disturbed by the Muslim infiltration into their
> countries. By the way, his true name is Barak Hussein Muhammed Obama."
>
> "Pray for us here in Kenya. We are still fighting for our nation to
> withstand the same kind of assault that every nation, including America, 
> is
> fighting. Takeover from the outside to fit the new world order. As
> believers, this means we will be the first targets. Here in Kenya, not one
> mosque was burned down, but hundreds of churches were burned down, some 
> with
> people in them, burned alive. Jesus Christ is our peace, but the new world
> order of Globalism has infiltrated the church and confused believers into
> thinking that they can compromise and survive. It won't be so. "
> Love, ( missionaries)
>
> Friends of Faith and Freedom, our country is staggering toward self
> destruction. If you have not read the letter I posted yesterday from "A
> Christian in Obama's America in 2012," created by Focus on the Family,
> please read it.
>
> __________________
>
>
> Gary Randall
> President
> Faith and Family Network
>
> Blessings all,
> and yes, it's good to hear other's views.
> Grace
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:34:03 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
>> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 26
>> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
>> Message-ID: <48209.29467.qm at web83107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Steve, Steve, Steve:
>>
>> You do make me think of some of the more humorous recent developments in
>> the electoral process.? With regard to "Nothing from you on how the
>> Republicans tried to stop the Mortgage crisis" given to Julie - you 
>> really
>> ought to read her emails before you toss out such statements.? But the
>> statement itself is interesting and how it grew to something people are
>> actually talking about is laughable.? First people started blaming the
>> mortgage crisis on the dems pushing to loosen up the sub prime loans so
>> more poor people could get loans to buy houses.? That is true and
>> certainly is a factor in the crisis - but the way it built from there is
>> laughable.? That happened in the late 90s and there was a dem in the 
>> white
>> house.? Of course republicans wouldn't support that because they don't
>> give a s**t about poor people and were afraid it might take away from
>> their wealth.? Nevertheless, it passed.? Then banks figured out they 
>> could
>> make a lot of money off of it.? I
>> believe if you actually paid attention to the crisis you know that it
>> wasn't just Fannie and Freddie, there were a lot of banks involved.? Lots
>> of them jumped on the subprime bandwagon.? The nice things about 
>> subprimes
>> is that you can charge higher interest rates.? It even got to the point
>> where some banks were writing sub prime loans for people who could 
>> qualify
>> for better rates - more money into the bank coffers.? And with the ever
>> and rapidly expanding value of the housing market, there wasn't really
>> that much risk.? Equity was growing faster than debt so the banks weren't
>> really taking on that much risk - they loved the sub primes.? Then they
>> started slicing and dicing them in lots of wonderful ways (result of
>> deregulation in the securities market, which I really have a very poor
>> understanding of, but I think most people do and that is part of the
>> problem) and everybody was making so much money it was a great party.? 
>> The
>> only problem was that it
>> depended on the everexpanding housing market and well, we know what
>> happened there.? There is lots of blame to go around.? The big problem is
>> that most of the nation bought into the idea of the possibiltiy of ever
>> expanding growth, the idea that greed is good, and the idea that
>> regulation, particularly government regulation, is bad.? There is a lot 
>> of
>> blame to go around, so much that I don't think it even makes sense to try
>> to point fingers.? We all ought to just get together and figure out what
>> to do with the mess we have.
>>
>> The second thing that I have been amused by lately is all the talk about
>> Obama being a socialist (I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up on this
>> list).? It is so amusing since the current Republican administration has
>> just taken on the biggest socialist project since the early 20th century
>> by functionally nationalizing a good portion of our financial system.? Oh
>> wait - they didn't really nationalize it because they still believe
>> regulation is bad and how banks are going to be regulated is still up in
>> the air.? The republicans still think regulation is bad (though I know
>> McCain has changed his tune on that a bit in the past couple of months -
>> Mr. "our economy is strong" himself) and think bailing out the banks will
>> make things work OK.? That is kind of like continually writing out
>> thousand dollar checks to your drug addicted twenty five year old son and
>> assuming that with each of them he will actually put a deposit on an
>> apartment and buy a nice set of
>> job interview clothes.
>>
>> And I'm really not sure what your point is about the US having enough oil
>> to supply us for 40 years.? That doesn't seem to long to me.? I will
>> likely not make it that long (the life expectancy for an american man
>> being 75 years, which comes in about thirty years for me) but there are a
>> lot of kids and other young people I care about who should still be alive
>> at that time.? And the oil gets harder and harder to extract the less
>> there is.? My guess in some way it is a jab about offshore drilling.
>> Offshore drilling is really a red herring.? The oil companies have
>> drilling leases on millions of acres of oil covering land that they
>> already aren't drilling - why don't they start there.
>>
>> Thanks for emphasizing the idiocy of what's going on in our politics.? It
>> is certainly worth a laugh
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:53:16 -0400
> From: "Joyce Maxwell" <joyce_maxwell at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 29
> To: "RVA class of '80" <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Message-ID: <084740EF01B5464F919764F8A2AA567A at MimituPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Grace, part of the article you sent comes from Loren Davis Ministries, the
> ministry of Loren and Celeste Davis, a couple that has been doing 
> evangelism
> in East Africa for a long time. (See
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/kenya.asp for a copy of their letter,
> and Snopes analysis of it.) They have quite a well-developed web site that
> you find by googling Loren Davis. Personally, I find that their work is
> well-intentioned, but when you read some of Loren's articles (for example
> http://lorendavis.com/news_articles_trouble.html), it sounds a lot like a
> narrow-minded rant full of fear and conspiracy.
>
> Peter, since you do a lot of evangelism in Western Kenya, and surely rub
> shoulders with many Luos who are keenly interested in what is happening in
> American politics, you could comment on how you see the situation. Have 
> you
> met the Davises?
>
> Joyce
>
> __________________________
>> In their own words:
>>
>> "What we would like you to know is what the American press has been
>> keeping
>> a secret. Obama IS a Muslim and he IS a racist and this is a fulfillment
>> of
>> the 9-11 threat that was just the beginning. Jihad is the only true 
>> Muslim
>> way. We have been working with them for 20 years this July! He is not an
>> American as we know it. Please encourage your friends and associates not
>> to
>> be taken in by those that are promoting him. It is world wide jihad. All
>> our
>> friends in Europe are very disturbed by the Muslim infiltration into 
>> their
>> countries. By the way, his true name is Barak Hussein Muhammed Obama."
> ________________________
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:15:03 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
> Subject: [ClassOf80] Fear, Islam, and Obama
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rva.org>
> Message-ID: <459687.3107.qm at web83105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello all:
>
> First.  Thanks Joyce for your recent post.  I found it most interesting 
> and informative.
>
> The whole Islam thing seems to be a big issue for many and I think the 
> fear that Islam generates in many people is unfortunate and contributes to 
> the rise of Islamic extremism (which I think most if not all reasonable 
> people think needs to be wiped out).  I really want to make a plug for 
> those of you who are concerned about this to read the book that Gene 
> recommended a couple of months ago, Acts of Faith by Eboo Patel.  Some 
> disclaimers.  If you believe your Christianity requires you to not develop 
> personal relationships with members of other faiths and you won't be able 
> to see value in them until they convert - don't bother reading it.  I just 
> finished and found it to be one of the most inspirational books I read 
> this year.  I talked earlier about the patriotic picture in it that I was 
> impressed by and the last chapter made me think that perhaps there is more 
> value in Christianity than I have given it credit for recently (remember 
> that this book is by a
> muslim).  If there were more Christians like Eboo is a muslim I might 
> still carry that label myself.
>
> Just ten more days until you guys can start tho Obama bashing and talking 
> about how badly he is screwing up the country (even though he won't 
> officially take over until January).
>
> Mark
> -------------- next part --------------
> HTML attachment scrubbed and removed
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Sharp <msharp01 at ameritech.net>
> Subject: [ClassOf80] Fw: Fwd: GREAT story
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rva.org>
> Message-ID: <178500.90095.qm at web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Thought I would post some positive Obama propaganda.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark & Debbi
>>From the header it appears that Janet did not include you in the list of 
>>people to whom she forwarded this, so I thought it might be of interest to 
>>you.
> [Perhaps it will be a factor in my decision on my presidential vote  --  
> though I find it difficult to accept Obama's views on abortion and the 
> definition of marriage.]
> [There are also some things I don't like about McCain.]
> --
> Jim & Dorothy Sharp
> 8704 Trapper Lane
> Knoxville TN 37931-4258
> Phone: 865 670-3998
> email: shar8044 at bellsouth.net
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Leah Brandon
>
>
>
>
>
> A dance teacher from Florida sent me this today ? it is HER experience.
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:42:35 +0000
>
>     Yesterday, October, 21, 2008, Barack Obama came to visit Lake
> Worth, at Palm Beach Community College.  My daughter, who has spina
> bifida and is a wheelchair-bound paraplegic, attends school there.  She
> was awaiting his arrival in front of a long line of other people.  When
> he arrived, she was able to see him get out of his vehicle.  The next
> thing she knew the crowd engulfed her and pushed her out of the way so
> they could get close to Mr.Obama.  Somehow, with everything else
> Mr.Obama had on his mind at this busy time, he was attentive to the
> situation.
>
>     My daughter said, "He (Mr. Obama) grabbed me from the crowd and
> pulled me away from all of the people who were pushing me out of the
> way.  He hugged me and whispered in my ear, "When I become president
> things will be better for you."  She told me that she was so
> overwhelmed all she could do was cry.  Then he hugged her again, and
> personally wheeled her wheelchair into the building, gave her two
> t-shirts and instructed the secret service to assist her to the VIP
> section, which is where she sat to watch the speech.
>
>     I called everyone I know and shared this touching story because it
> speaks volumes to me, much more than any campaign speech, commercial,
> or debate. We were lucky enough to have a personal experience with
> Barack Obama, the man...the human.
>
>     I am so overwhelmed that he was perceptive enough to observe what
> was happening to my daughter (as she was being swallowed by the
> thoughtless crowd) and that he took the time to remedy the situation
> (even though he was running late that very busy day.)
>
>     This gave me insight into the type of person he is in everyday
> life.  He didn't have to go into the crowd and save her, he could have
> pretended he didn't see her and go about his business, or he could have
> instructed the secret service to help her.  But, he didn't.  He took
> his time and made a difference...right there...right then...no fancy
> campaign speech, no media coverage...just his true essence, shinning
> through, with an incredible act of kindness that one Tuesday Morning.
> I felt compelled to share this story with others, so they too, can get
> a glimpse of the inner essence of this man.  It is not often we have
> the opportunity to see the true nature of a person making a spontaneous
> choice  in a difficult situation.  Mr. Obama's choice lets me know that
> he is attentive to his environment, willing to get involved,
> compassionate, and will make a change...even in the seemingly small
> problems of everyday life.
>
>     Barack Obama, won our hearts, because of this seemingly simple act
> of kindness to our daughter who was being swallowed by a thoughtless
> crowd.
>
>     If he would stand up for her like he did, I now believe without
> ANY doubt he would stand up for this country and do the right thing.
> Mr. Obama you have my vote.  You touched us beyond what I can express
> with mere words.
>
>
>
> Dawn Leacock
>
>
>
> Please share our story...pass it on.............................
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Leah Brandon
>
> Managing Director
>
> 866-692-5678
>
> NYC Dance Alliance
>
> Onstage New York
>
> NYC Theatrical Events
>
> Lanteri NY
> -------------- next part --------------
> HTML attachment scrubbed and removed
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
>
> End of ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 32
> ***************************************** 



From heffling at whidbey.com  Sat Oct 25 20:33:45 2008
From: heffling at whidbey.com (Hefflingers)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:33:45 -0700
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 21
References: <mailman.760.1224436699.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <007f01c93713$44fac040$2202a8c0@Desktophp>

Thanks for sharing this. It's good!
Grace
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <classof80-request at rvaalumni.org>
To: <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:18 AM
Subject: ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 21


> Send ClassOf80 mailing list submissions to
> classof80 at rvaalumni.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> classof80-request at rvaalumni.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> classof80-owner at rvaalumni.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ClassOf80 digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country, he hit the
>      nail on th... (Stephen M H)
>   2. Re: FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country, he hit
>      the nail on th... (Joyce Maxwell)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:51:26 -0500
> From: Stephen M H <gijoe1lt at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our
> country, he hit the nail on th...
> To: "classof80 at rvaalumni.org" <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY112-W49DF09EBECBF4131B8D227882C0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
>
> David Letterman wrote this; it's the David we don't often see...  As most 
> of you know I am not a President Bush fan, nor have I ever been, but this 
> is not about Bush, it is about us, as Americans, and it seems to hit the 
> mark 'The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some 
> Poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true given the 
> source, right? The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are 
> unhappy with the direction the country is headed and 69 percent of the 
> country is unhappy with the performance of the President. In essence 2/3 
> of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change. So being the knuckle 
> dragger I am, I started thinking, 'What are we so unhappy about?''  A.. Is 
> it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 Days a 
> week?  B.. Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the 
> summer and heating in the winter?  C.. Could it be that 95.4 percent of 
> these unhappy folks have a job?  D.. Maybe it is the ability to walk into 
> a grocery store at any time and see more food in moments than Darfur has 
> seen in the last year?  E.. Maybe it is the ability to drive our cars and 
> trucks from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to 
> present identification papers as we move through each state?  F.. Or 
> possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way 
> that can provide temporary shelter?  G.. I guess having thousands of 
> restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good 
> enough either.  H. Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency 
> workers show up and provide services to help all and even send a 
> helicopter to take you to the hospital.  I.. Perhaps you are one of the 70 
> percent of Americans who own a home.  J.. You may be upset with knowing 
> that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters 
> will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to extinguish the 
> flames, thus saving you, our family, and your belongings.  K.. Or if, 
> while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or 
> prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest 
> will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss  L.. This 
> all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and 
> pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90% of teenagers own cell 
> phones and computers.  M.. How about the complete religious, social and 
> political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world? 
> Maybe that is what has 67% of you folks unhappy.  Fact is, we are the 
> largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No 
> wonder the world loves the U.S. , yet has a great disdain for its 
> citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the 
> world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have, and what we 
> hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here.
>
> I know, I know. What about the president who took us into war and has no 
> plan to get us out? The president who has a measly 31 percent approval 
> rating? Is this the same president who guided the nation in the dark days 
> after 9/11? The president that cut taxes to bring an economy out of 
> recession? Could this be the same guy who has been called every name in 
> the book for succeeding in keeping all the spoiled ungrateful brats safe 
> from terrorist attacks? The commander in chief of an all-volunteer army 
> that is out there defending you and me?  Did you hear how bad the 
> President is on the news or talk show? Did this news affect you so much, 
> make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for yourself and see 
> all the good things and be glad? Think about it......are you upset at the 
> President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it because 
> the 'Media' told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful behind 
> every day. Make no mistake about it.  The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan 
> have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your 
> freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to 
> go. They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' 
> discharge, an 'other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a 
> ''dishonorable' ' discharge after a few days in the brig.  So why then the 
> flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of Americans?  Say what 
> you want but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds it leads and they 
> specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and 
> guts How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media 
> knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what 
> sells, and when criticized, try to defend their actions by 'justifying' 
> them in one way or another Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer 
> like O.J. Simpson to write a book about how he didn't kill his wife, but 
> if he did he would have done it this way......Insane!  Turn off the TV, 
> burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of your bird 
> cage. Then start being grateful for all we have as country. There is 
> exponentially more good than bad. We are among the most blessed people on 
> Earth and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful 
> and appreciative.' 'With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud 
> slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end 
> to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, 'Are we 
> sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?'
> David Letterman  Please keep this in circulation. There are so many people 
> who need to read This
>
> ***** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE *****This email may contain IAP Worldwide 
> Services trade secrets and/or proprietary information. This email is 
> intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named 
> above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized 
> representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
> review, dissemination or copying of this email and its attachments, if 
> any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you have 
> received this email in error, please immediately notify the sender by 
> return email and delete this email and attachments, if any, from your 
> system.***** DISCLAIMER NOTICE *****Any opinions stated in this email are 
> those solely of the author and do not necessarily represent those of IAP 
> Worldwide Services and/or its affiliates.
>
>
> McCain or Obama? Stay updated on coverage of the Presidential race while 
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:16:55 -0400
> From: "Joyce Maxwell" <joyce_maxwell at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our
> country, he hit the nail on th...
> To: "RVA class of '80" <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Message-ID: <5096C1DE7D424F7798CE7C65FA37DBE6 at MimituPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> This is from David Letterman? How can you tell? I found several copies of 
> it online, but one was anonymous and the other was signed "Jay Leno" with 
> the email address jacrit at aol.com.
>
> That aside, this really makes a good point. Our fortune or misfortune is 
> all relative, really. How well we are doing is defined by who we are 
> comparing ourselves with, and on what basis. I was so lucky that growing 
> up as an MK, in a family that really was financially poor, my parents 
> chose to dwell instead on how rich we were in relationships and 
> experiences. We truly felt that as a part of God's family we were rich in 
> caring, supportive relationships that extended across the world.
>
> And not only that, having grown up in places where we DIDN'T have all the 
> things in the list below, we are strong in knowing that happiness doesn't 
> necessarily depend on having 24-hour electricity and running water or 
> well-stocked grocery stores, or a house in the suburbs.
>
> -Joyce
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Stephen M H
>  To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
>  Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 12:51 PM
>  Subject: [ClassOf80] FW: Letter from David Letterman about our country, 
> he hit the nail on th...
>
>
>
>  David Letterman wrote this; it's the David we don't often see...
>
>  As most of you know I am not a President Bush fan, nor have I ever been, 
> but this is not about Bush, it is about us, as Americans, and it seems to 
> hit the mark 'The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came 
> across some Poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true 
> given the source, right? The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of 
> Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed and 69 
> percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the President. 
> In essence 2/3 of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change. So 
> being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking, 'What are we so 
> unhappy about?''
>
>  A.. Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 
> Days a week?
>
>  B.. Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the 
> summer and heating in the winter?
>
>  C.. Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job?
>
>  D.. Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time and 
> see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?
>
>  E.. Maybe it is the ability to drive our cars and trucks from the Pacific 
> Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification 
> papers as we move through each state?
>
>  F.. Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along 
> the way that can provide temporary shelter?
>
>  G.. I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from 
> around the world is just not good enough either.
>
>  H. Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up 
> and provide services to help all and even send a helicopter to take you to 
> the hospital.
>
>  I.. Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home.
>
>  J.. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, 
> a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch 
> equipment to extinguish the flames, thus saving you, our family, and your 
> belongings.
>
>  K.. Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a 
> burglar or prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a 
> bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack 
> or loss
>
>  L.. This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias 
> raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90% of teenagers 
> own cell phones and computers.
>
>  M.. How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we 
> enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world?
>
>  Maybe that is what has 67% of you folks unhappy.
>
>  Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world 
> has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S. , yet has a great 
> disdain for its citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed 
> people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have, 
> and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we 
> live here.
>
>  I know, I know. What about the president who took us into war and has no 
> plan to get us out? The president who has a measly 31 percent approval 
> rating? Is this the same president who guided the nation in the dark days 
> after 9/11? The president that cut taxes to bring an economy out of 
> recession? Could this be the same guy who has been called every name in 
> the book for succeeding in keeping all the spoiled ungrateful brats safe 
> from terrorist attacks? The commander in chief of an all-volunteer army 
> that is out there defending you and me?
>
>  Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this 
> news affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look 
> around for yourself and see all the good things and be glad? Think about 
> it......are you upset at the President because he actually caused you 
> personal pain OR is it because the 'Media' told you he was failing to kiss 
> your sorry ungrateful behind every day. Make no mistake about it.
>
>  The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many 
> cases may have died for your freedom. There is currently no draft in this 
> country. They didn't have to go. They are able to refuse to go and end up 
> with either a ''general'' discharge, an 'other than honorable'' discharge 
> or, worst case scenario, a ''dishonorable' ' discharge after a few days in 
> the brig.
>
>  So why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of 
> Americans?
>
>  Say what you want but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds it leads and 
> they specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood 
> and guts How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The 
> media knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer 
> what sells, and when criticized, try to defend their actions by 
> 'justifying' them in one way or another Just ask why they tried to allow a 
> murderer like O.J. Simpson to write a book about how he didn't kill his 
> wife, but if he did he would have done it this way......Insane!
>
>  Turn off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom 
> of your bird cage. Then start being grateful for all we have as country. 
> There is exponentially more good than bad. We are among the most blessed 
> people on Earth and should thank God several times a day, or at least be 
> thankful and appreciative.' 'With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of 
> control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country 
> from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist 
> attacks, 'Are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of 
> Allegiance?'
>
>  David Letterman
>
>  Please keep this in circulation. There are so many people who need to 
> read This
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  ***** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE *****
>  This email may contain IAP Worldwide Services trade secrets and/or 
> proprietary information. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the 
> individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended 
> recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you 
> are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copying of this 
> email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is 
> prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please immediately 
> notify the sender by return email and delete this email and attachments, 
> if any, from your system.
>
>  ***** DISCLAIMER NOTICE *****
>  Any opinions stated in this email are those solely of the author and do 
> not necessarily represent those of IAP Worldwide Services and/or its 
> affiliates.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  McCain or Obama? Stay updated on coverage of the Presidential race while 
> you browse - Download Now!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive. Start 
> uploading now
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
>
> End of ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 21
> ***************************************** 



From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 26 15:22:29 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 14:22:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] DCI  / schools  / and the american way
Message-ID: <880514.93299.qm@web34708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

steve,? dont know if you're still curious but the article i referenced is called
"Mortgage firm arranged stealth campaign" by Pete Yost,? AP staff writer, 10/19/08

it's always good to read a few articles if you're curious, to get more views, but i can say this one looks like a movie script with nobody innocent... 
EXCEPT mccain if you read my last e-mail.? he was not targeted by DCI?and he did vote for?the bill.? 

Goodyear (Badguy, who then ran DCI) was next hired as McCains campaign manager ...!???? 
Goodyear later resigned from the rep.?convention job?when Newsweek?exposed that he had lobbied pro-military junta of Myanmar.? 

Hagel is the republican who tried to get Freddie investigated,? but failed because of the DCI - $2million- effort to kill the legislation.

Mark thanks for the story about obama, and Grace i have to say i'm seeing more dialogue from the far right like the one you sent... it's not recognizable to me as having?much Christian value, but looks like?an effort to scare fundamentalists to make sure they secure the far right vote for McCain.? 

Tory i'm asking -? were you responding to my e-mail on the unicef report with the statement about Paul's spiritually evolved security in any circumstance???? maybe i misunderstood.?

You?usually correspond from the high ground?of love and compassion... so maybe i didnt get your point. 
are you saying the US?should be content with our?status quo in child development/support/safety/health etc??? 
it's not the situation God has place our country in,?it's the decisions we all made that got us here.???

the data shows poorer quality of life?by specific parameters,?not "how happy are you". 
do you think it's ok to be the richest?country but worst of 20 countries in large external studies? 

?randy- you said you taught for many yrs and money wont help.? but i never taught and i disagree, because teacher salaries are not very competitive.? we trust the future of the country to one of the lowest-paid professions, and in turn the teachers are often as uncompetitive as the salaries.?(not you, i'm sure you're great, but i bet you taught in "better" schools with minimal gang violence, drugs, etc).? ?i also think better funding would allow poor schools more structured programs and discipline, safety and tolerable atmosphere.?? 
Obama is for charter schools plus public schools,? dont you think (like military) we can have public and private systems side by side? 

some of our US schools are no place to learn anything except survival skills.? 
the?kids should have joy in any circumstance????? 

peace?? -?? julie


      


From randanallen at juno.com  Sun Oct 26 16:08:22 2008
From: randanallen at juno.com (randanallen at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:08:22 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] DCI  / schools  / and the american way
Message-ID: <20081026.170822.3672.0.randanallen@juno.com>

Julie,

You make some excellent observations about our schools.  It is true that
students at 'rich' schools have a higher rate of success but I still
believe it is because of family and not just the money.  Most of those
kids have parents who love and support them whereas the kids in the
schools where there are gang, drug, and whatever problems don't.  Schools
reflect family.  If you look at some of the big inner city school
districts who have a lot of problems you will find they spend more money
per student than other school districts that are smaller. Look at all the
variables. The one that is the most different is the family.  You said
"we trust the future of our country to one of the lowest paid
professions...." .  That is exactly my point. We should trust our future
to the family and invest in that. The parents that come to "open house"
at school are ALWAYS the parents of the students that do well in school.
It is usually a pretty good snapshot.  Teachers can predict whose parents
will come and whose won't. 
More money and emphasis on education would be great but not the answer.

Randy

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 14:22:29 -0700 (PDT) JULIE LINDHOLM
<lindholmsi at yahoo.com> writes:
> steve,  dont know if you're still curious but the article i 
> referenced is called
> "Mortgage firm arranged stealth campaign" by Pete Yost,  AP staff 
> writer, 10/19/08
> 
> it's always good to read a few articles if you're curious, to get 
> more views, but i can say this one looks like a movie script with 
> nobody innocent... 
> EXCEPT mccain if you read my last e-mail.  he was not targeted by 
> DCI and he did vote for the bill.  
> 
> Goodyear (Badguy, who then ran DCI) was next hired as McCains 
> campaign manager ...!     
> Goodyear later resigned from the rep. convention job when 
> Newsweek exposed that he had lobbied pro-military junta of Myanmar.  
> 
> 
> Hagel is the republican who tried to get Freddie investigated,  but 
> failed because of the DCI - $2million- effort to kill the 
> legislation.
> 
> Mark thanks for the story about obama, and Grace i have to say i'm 
> seeing more dialogue from the far right like the one you sent... 
> it's not recognizable to me as having much Christian value, but 
> looks like an effort to scare fundamentalists to make sure they 
> secure the far right vote for McCain.  
> 
> Tory i'm asking -  were you responding to my e-mail on the unicef 
> report with the statement about Paul's spiritually evolved security 
> in any circumstance?    maybe i misunderstood. 
> 
> You usually correspond from the high ground of love and 
> compassion... so maybe i didnt get your point. 
> are you saying the US should be content with our status quo in child 
> development/support/safety/health etc?   
> it's not the situation God has place our country in, it's the 
> decisions we all made that got us here.   
> 
> the data shows poorer quality of life by specific parameters, not 
> "how happy are you". 
> do you think it's ok to be the richest country but worst of 20 
> countries in large external studies? 
> 
>  randy- you said you taught for many yrs and money wont help.  but i 
> never taught and i disagree, because teacher salaries are not very 
> competitive.  we trust the future of the country to one of the 
> lowest-paid professions, and in turn the teachers are often as 
> uncompetitive as the salaries. (not you, i'm sure you're great, but 
> i bet you taught in "better" schools with minimal gang violence, 
> drugs, etc).   i also think better funding would allow poor schools 
> more structured programs and discipline, safety and tolerable 
> atmosphere.   
> Obama is for charter schools plus public schools,  dont you think 
> (like military) we can have public and private systems side by side? 
> 
> 
> some of our US schools are no place to learn anything except 
> survival skills.  
> the kids should have joy in any circumstance?     
> 
> peace   -   julie
> 
> 
>       
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
> 
> 
____________________________________________________________
Have a nack for decorating?  Click here to earn money from your passion.
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From tory at trwengineering.com  Sun Oct 26 21:27:05 2008
From: tory at trwengineering.com (tory at trwengineering.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:27:05 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] DCI  / schools  / and the american way
In-Reply-To: <880514.93299.qm@web34708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <880514.93299.qm@web34708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2732.75.11.173.182.1225078025.squirrel@www.trwengineering.com>

Julie, yes I think you misunderstood.  I wasn?t really responding to the
UNICEF report.  I was trying to remind us all what God says about
contentment not being related to circumstances that we have no control
over and that real contentment has to be learned. I just thought it was
very interesting that there were many people living in what we would
describe as below poverty level who described themselves as ?really
happy.?

I once heard about an interesting thing that happened during the building
of the Panama Canal.  The local workers were paid in cash, but they had no
use for it
 until someone introduced them to Sears catalogs, and all of a
sudden they needed things they never knew they needed before.

I agree that our county is in trouble, and the statistics that show us how
we are failing our children are alarming to me.  Materialism certainly has
to share partial responsibility for that (among a number of equally
heinous sins I won't focus on right now).  Materialism is a miserable god
that incites greed and a lack of compassion to those in need, and in the
end it fails to deliver to it?s adherents, as we have recently seen.  The
children are usually the first to suffer. But not all of materialism?s
adherents are wealthy capitalists. It doesn?t matter what party or
government we talk about, power and greed go together.

And of course it is not confined to government.  The church in America has
exported the false ugly gospel of health, wealth and prosperity across the
globe, and there are millions of the poorest of the poor that are
mesmerized by it.  It has swept across Africa like a storm.  That really
angers me greatly, as I see the name of the Lord used for material gain
and mocked by those who would point to this as justification for not
believing in the true gospel of grace and the cross (If any man will come
after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow
me).

So back to contentment
it certainly doesn?t mean we adopt a fatalist or
apathetic attitude.  There ARE things we CAN change and have an obligation
to do so.  But to rehash an old thread from a year or two ago, I don?t
want my government doing this for me.  I just don?t think they will ever
do a good job at it.  The Church with all of her faults does best when she
is acting like the body of Christ, engaged in the culture, reaching out to
outcasts, the poor, widows/single moms, orphans/inner city/rez kids.  Yes,
the Church (myself included) falls woefully short too, and there will
always be cases of fraud and abuse, but I get to pray over and choose
where my tithe goes based on how effective a ministry is. My church is far
from perfect, as all are, but we are feeding a lot of people right now and
reaching out to a lot of hurting and marginalized people.  That?s the way
it?s supposed to be.

Well, once again I got a little carried away, but hopefully somewhere
above I answered your question.

Tory




From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Sun Oct 26 22:35:22 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:35:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] McCain and al Qaeda
Message-ID: <903923.57312.qm@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Wow.  Did you hear that an Al qaeda web site is endorsing McCain for president?  It doesn't seem to be something that he is crowing about.  But to some it makes sense.  To quote Nicholas Kristoff (I know, a pinko communist):


An American president who keeps troops in Iraq indefinitely, fulminates
about Islamic terrorism, inclines toward military solutions and
antagonizes other nations is an excellent recruiting tool. In contrast,
an African-American president with a Muslim grandfather and a penchant
for building bridges rather than blowing them up would give Al Qaeda
recruiters fits.

Gotta keep the pot stirring.  Only a little more than a week to the election.

Mark
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From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 27 04:32:25 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 05:32:25 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] McCain and al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <903923.57312.qm@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <903923.57312.qm@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W17F6F6E5684742F88C6C15A7240@phx.gbl>

That's sure one way to look at it.  My immediate reaction is that Al Qaeda knows that when the publicly endorse someone most of America would go against what they want..... therefore they are NOT wanting a leader with some backbone in office and in reality would love an American president that is inexperienced, unqualified, weak and manipulatable (think I just made up that last word).  Obama would be a dream come true for them.
 
I know that earlier you said that the trickle down theory of Reagan's did not work in your opinion and you seem to prefer Obama's tax refund plan for us in the lower to middle class range and the elimination of the big corporation tax incentives.  What do you think the big corporations will do when they don't get the tax incentives?  Think they'll just accept a smaller bottom line?  I'm thinking no and I'm thinking the little tax cut I'm getting from Obama will never cover the cost of how much everything will suddenly go up and the people most effected will be the poorest.  So, the tax plan looks great to the poor people going to the polls for now but it's an empty, dishonest hope. 
 
John Armes... Is that you talking or Ginny?  (I get confused because you use the same email address)  Whichever....I'd love to hear more from you because I hear some serious common sense there that I could actually benefit from.  Tell me more.

 
_________________________________________________________________
Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive.
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From jgarmes at msn.com  Mon Oct 27 10:19:39 2008
From: jgarmes at msn.com (John Armes)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:19:39 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] McCain and al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <BAY137-W17F6F6E5684742F88C6C15A7240@phx.gbl>
References: <903923.57312.qm@web83106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BAY137-W17F6F6E5684742F88C6C15A7240@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU134-DAV83AAEA8B1E22408C39281A0240@phx.gbl>

Hi Mel,
  This is John who has been writing.  I'd like to recommend you (or  
anyone interested) reading in a small paper back book entitled,  
"Whatever Happened to Penny Candy?" by Richard J. Maybury.  He  
explains in simple language economics and some of the reasons the  
market does what it does.
   On a different note, it is my opinion that if indeed the United  
States is serious about energy independency from other nations by  
developing alternative energy sources i.e. wind, solar, geothermal,  
etc., then it would be in the United States national interest for  
economic and security reasons to maintain high oil prices.  Sounds  
bad, but hear  me out.  By having high oil prices, people and  
companies develop internal motivation to seek alternative energy  
sources.   As we know, alternative energy has not been cost effective  
compared to the use of oil.  But when oil reaches a "Point of Pain",  
people will be ready to look to other sources.  If oil drops like it  
has recently, then all motivation for alternative energy dries up.    
It is clear that we as a nation are addicted to oil.  To combat any  
addiction,  people and corporations must be motivated to change.   
Motivation cannot be given as it is internalized, but if certain  
environment conditions surround the addictions, motivation can  
blossom.   Consider the issues of smoking and driving tickets.  It  
wasn't until the state governments jacked the prices up that people  
were motivated to change.   Of course, neither Obama or McCain will  
tell the American people he would maintain high oil prices to bring  
about energy independence as this would be very unpopular and hard to  
swallow.
      Having said all this (sorry), it is my belief that the US is not  
ready or committed to change.  At best, I think the government is only  
"testing the waters" of max pain to get a better picture of what  
revenue they could generate without causing a revolt that could  
potentially be used for alternative energy or more likely other  
special interest spending.  $144/barrel of oil was near max pain.  $50- 
$75/ barrel is normal.  So when the pice if oil drops from $144 to  
$100, people are happy, feel relief, find the lower price acceptable  
to live with, and the government gets a lot of cash.
   So, how does all this relate to who to vote for?  Does Palin's  
energy experience convince me that McCain is the right choice? Not  
really.  Does Obama's promises of energy change convince me? Not  
really.  On the issue of Energy (which is critical how the economy and  
national security will turn out) it does  not matter who I vote for.    
Either both have no clue on what to do, or both do understand that  
something else is at foot and can do nothing about it.  And if they  
can do something about it,  they will not say so because it will be  
detrimental to being elected.
   On the issue of big corporations getting tax incentives for R & D,  
I think it is a necessary evil.  The mom and pop businesses do not  
have the financial resources to develop and fund new markets.  The  
problem is making sure oversight will be conducted if these  
corporations do receive tax incentives for what they were intended.   
The government can enforce this if it has a moral heart beat.  As this  
country moves further away from Christian ethics to relativism as a  
guide for business conduct, dishonesty and "unjust weights" become  
more acceptable, and the likelihood that the tax incentives would do  
what they were intended for will decrease.  I'm guilty as charged for  
not praying for our leaders as I should.  In fact, I'd be hard pressed  
if I could count the number of times I prayed for the national leaders  
this past year on my hands!  It is "IN God We Trust".  We Christians  
can be blamed for a lot of the economic mess we are in by trusting  
something/someone other than God Himself.
   Who am I going to vote for?? I'm still undecided, but will hold my  
nose and choose one here shortly!  John
On Oct 27, 2008, at 4:32 AM, Melanie Phifer wrote:

> That's sure one way to look at it.  My immediate reaction is that Al  
> Qaeda knows that when the publicly endorse someone most of America  
> would go against what they want..... therefore they are NOT wanting  
> a leader with some backbone in office and in reality would love an  
> American president that is inexperienced, unqualified, weak and  
> manipulatable (think I just made up that last word).  Obama would be  
> a dream come true for them.
>
> I know that earlier you said that the trickle down theory of  
> Reagan's did not work in your opinion and you seem to prefer Obama's  
> tax refund plan for us in the lower to middle class range and the  
> elimination of the big corporation tax incentives.  What do you  
> think the big corporations will do when they don't get the tax  
> incentives?  Think they'll just accept a smaller bottom line?  I'm  
> thinking no and I'm thinking the little tax cut I'm getting from  
> Obama will never cover the cost of how much everything will suddenly  
> go up and the people most effected will be the poorest.  So, the tax  
> plan looks great to the poor people going to the polls for now but  
> it's an empty, dishonest hope.
>
> John Armes... Is that you talking or Ginny?  (I get confused because  
> you use the same email address)  Whichever....I'd love to hear more  
> from you because I hear some serious common sense there that I could  
> actually benefit from.  Tell me more.
>
>
>
>
>
> Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive. Start  
> uploading now _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80

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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 27 11:28:16 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:28:16 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 34
In-Reply-To: <mailman.861.1225124410.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.861.1225124410.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W161A42ABCF2758651131F288240@phx.gbl>


Mel: If only more people had your insight and believed what you said will happen...I sure hope it does and more corporations move away.  Theres still cheap labor in Thailand, China, Mexico... Maybe we need to hit more of a bottom till the poor understand that the Democrat party has always been about keeping the wealthy WEALTHY and the poor POOR.. 
 
Mark: and do your really think your insignificant news will effect anyone? So what.... Look at Obama hes a Muslim parading around in a black church that spewed out hate for 20 years- associated with Muslims and their organizations...Has committed fraud in taking monies from foreigners- advisors are from MAE AND MANNIE... Has not said one thing about the voter fraud that has taken place... and so on and on.... 
 
Julie: Give up.... your dream world will never happen....God is coiming and the things happening now are just going to keep happening... We as a world have to come together and as of right now Muslims and Christians will never get along... Thanks for your info on Goodyear...Good man in resigning. Would of like to have heard of Obama's advisors doing the same- or even going up the river for what they did...Hey what we can we expect Teddy never was charged with that womans murder... 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive.
http://skydrive.live.com/welcome.aspx?provision=1?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_102008
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 27 20:53:10 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:53:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] McCain and al Qaeda
Message-ID: <435090.16332.qm@web34707.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



HEY JOHN thanks for that perspective, and i'll tell a short story... oil, gas prices spiked? a few yrs ago.? i remember so clearly standing at the scrub sink before a case, with my senior surgeon, who suddenly said "let oil go up to 5$ a gallon.? it will finally force the US to get serious about alternative energy, and if that's what it takes, fine".? 

?ever since he said that i have never felt?bad about?high gas prices... 
meanwhile i am certain the oil prices are not a government conspiracy (is that what you implied john?) 
i think our government has not demonstrated capacity for such clever plans.? 

on last minute (last ditch) politics, mark, steve, cindy,? i know you guys are just tossing around comments you've heard. ?but at the last minute,?whatever any far right or left extremists?say,?what al qaeda says, what white supremacists say,?...? ?consider the sources.?? 
steve what are you reading, and who do you listen to??????you?believe?obama is muslim? ?what sect do you think he is??
you're right about?me having extreme pie-in-the-sky dreams for this country- i am sure we can get back to greatness.? and i'm sure we will (and?must) find?better?forms of communication than?combat and torture.??? 

tory,? i'm thinking a lot about what you said for the church filling the role of social programs,? and churches have successfully done so much in education, health, and social welfare.? in the us and in many countries.? but the government has extreme responsibility to?citizens and ?the point of democracy is we're obligated to speak up for those without voices (i think you said that).

take care all -? julie


      
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From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Mon Oct 27 23:54:22 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:54:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] responses and more pot stirring
Message-ID: <995538.61144.qm@web83105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Just thought I would send out a couple of responses to things people have said over the last day or so.

Julie - keep having pie in the sky dreams.  If everyone just had reasonable dreams we would never accomplish anything.  And remind us occasionally that we really ought to be trying to live up to your dreams.

I'd like to add my voice to those thanking you, John, for your voice of reason and economic knowledge.  Thanks for the book reference.  I really feel pretty ignorant with regard to economics and have been interested in trying to find a way to learn the basics.  I couldn't agree with you more that we ought to be pleased by higher gas prices.  I've been known in some of my more extreme moments to say that SUV's are immoral and have driven the same car for sixteen years that still gets 35+ miles to the gallon.  It is kind of unfortunate that no one who spoke the harsh truth about energy independence could have a prayer at getting elected to any significant office.

Tory.  I like your idea of the church helping to support, train etc., but quite frankly, I think the church fails as often as anybody else on this.  I agree with Julie that there is a government responsibility and that those of us who actually care should work to be "Christian" in our values toward the poor with any organization we have an impact on: church, business, government, community, whatever.  I don't know.  If I keep talking like this I may have to start going to church again.

Mel.  I don't really prefer Obama's tax cuts for people under $250,000.  I actually think that any politicians that are talking about lowering taxes are pandering for votes - but that they pretty much have to or people won't vote for them.  My point was that the conversation on this list was about Obama raising taxes for the majority of us, whereas in pure self interest (which I hope doesn't motivate all of us, but seems to come out in the tax talks) Obama's plan probably was better for most on this list.  I know I don't make over $250,000 a year and I'm guessing most of this list doesn't either, though I am sure there are exceptions.  I don't think fighting for lower taxes is a good idea.  This country has a lot of debt and it will come due sometime and some way.  It would be nicer if we would plan for dealing with it rather than being forced to deal with it.  And yes.  I do think that trickle down has failed (notice nobody really even uses that term
 any more).  The national debt has doubled under W and only really took off under Reagan.  And as for economic policies by party - the only president to have a budget surplus in the past thirty years was a democrat - Bill Clinton.

Steve.  No.  I didn't expect anything to come from my little tidbit of information.  Frankly, with that one I was just stirring the pot.  Thanks to you and Mel for at least noticing.

Now a bit more pot stirring, though I really would like some discussion on the issue.  Julie, you mention that it is hard to take anything seriously said by extreme ends of the spectrum this close to the election, and I agree.  I ran across an article (got the link from an organization called Faith in Public Life) that was talking about the Christian right's upping the ante in the rhetoric against Barack Obama.  They acknowledged that the use of fear is very common in closing days (i.e. the dire consequences if the wrong person is elected) but one person suggested that the religious right (actually he used the term evangelicals, whom I recognize aren't all on the right but many confuse that) are particularly likely to use fear based arguments.  He even used the term "theologically prone."  If you are interested, you can find the article at 
http://www.freep.com/article/20081025/NEWS15/81024120/1215/NEWS15.  Anyway.  What do you all think of this.  My experience is that there is some truth to it.  The fear expressed about Islam and Obama being a muslim seem to be a good example of that.  

Like I said.  I'm stirring the pot, but I am interested in people's opinions.

Mark
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From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 28 05:03:35 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 06:03:35 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] responses and more pot stirring
In-Reply-To: <995538.61144.qm@web83105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <995538.61144.qm@web83105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W15F3101993C169E434D200A7270@phx.gbl>


Oh great!  Now I'm immoral for the make of my car!  ;)  In her defense she is over 10 years old and still gets 24 miles to the gallon in town.  We have a deep relationship and I can't seem to part with her and cram the carseats in a Corolla.  Partly because it's inconvenient and partly because I can't afford car payments anymore!
 
Yes, Mark. I would say the fear tactic works pretty well.  I recall my first election in the states in college.  When I woke up on election morning there was a door hanger on my dorm room doorknob that said "You could wake up tomorrow with Mondale as your President.  If that doesn't scare you, it should.... VOTE!"  On the back it listed all the scary things about Mondale.  I was motivated to get out there like a linebacker pushing people aside and rushing into the inzone to cast my vote before evil took over. I hope I don't scare as easily now!
 
Thanks John!  That's what I'm talking about!  Good information and some serious common sense!  Thanks for the recommendation on the book.  I heard Glen Beck talk about that book last week.  Now that you've recommended it I'll definitely have to look for it.  I need to understand the economy better than I do.  Think I'll get my mom a copy, too.  She needs another source than Fox News for sure!
 
Ooooh, I'm resisting stirring the pot.  I want to but I'll refrain because I need to get to work and quit reading these things!
_________________________________________________________________
You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/
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From brown.deanna at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 28 06:44:54 2008
From: brown.deanna at yahoo.com (Deanna Brown)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 05:44:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] prayer request
Message-ID: <844960.24442.qm@web45601.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

For those of you who have not been notified by facebook, Randy Allen's younger brother Bruce is in ICU in San Antonio, TX with pancreatitis. He went into cardiac arrest yesterday, but is stablized somewhat. They are watching for kidney failure. Please pray for Bruce, his wife, Laura and his two children, Abby and Caroline. Also pray for Bruce's parents and?siblings, Gary, Valerie and Randy as they travel to SA to be with Bruce and his family. This is all I know at the moment. If there is someone on this list that would prefer an email update to facebook, let me know, and I will continue to update. Deanna



      



From jgarmes at msn.com  Tue Oct 28 09:40:14 2008
From: jgarmes at msn.com (John Armes)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:40:14 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] responses and more pot stirring
In-Reply-To: <BAY137-W15F3101993C169E434D200A7270@phx.gbl>
References: <995538.61144.qm@web83105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BAY137-W15F3101993C169E434D200A7270@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU134-DAV107D4C720346C49CB884E1A0270@phx.gbl>

Yikes Mel!  Did you reference Glen Beck as good source??  Julie, I'm  
not sure I subscribe to the conspiracy theory, but it is a fact that  
most governments do things the general public knows little of  
especially in the areas of national defense and military operations.   
Governments make ("good intentioned")policies for the nations or  
states all the time whether we agree with them or not.  From what I've  
read and seen,  the majority of the US did not want the  
$700,000,000.00 bail-out package, yet the Senate and Congress "knew  
better" and went for it in defense of the nation's economy.  It could  
work, but it come with a price our kids will have to pay for.

On Oct 28, 2008, at 5:03 AM, Melanie Phifer wrote:

> Oh great!  Now I'm immoral for the make of my car!  ;)  In her  
> defense she is over 10 years old and still gets 24 miles to the  
> gallon in town.  We have a deep relationship and I can't seem to  
> part with her and cram the carseats in a Corolla.  Partly because  
> it's inconvenient and partly because I can't afford car payments  
> anymore!
>
> Yes, Mark. I would say the fear tactic works pretty well.  I recall  
> my first election in the states in college.  When I woke up on  
> election morning there was a door hanger on my dorm room doorknob  
> that said "You could wake up tomorrow with Mondale as your  
> President.  If that doesn't scare you, it should.... VOTE!"  On the  
> back it listed all the scary things about Mondale.  I was motivated  
> to get out there like a linebacker pushing people aside and rushing  
> into the inzone to cast my vote before evil took over. I hope I  
> don't scare as easily now!
>
> Thanks John!  That's what I'm talking about!  Good information and  
> some serious common sense!  Thanks for the recommendation on the  
> book.  I heard Glen Beck talk about that book last week.  Now that  
> you've recommended it I'll definitely have to look for it.  I need  
> to understand the economy better than I do.  Think I'll get my mom a  
> copy, too.  She needs another source than Fox News for sure!
>
> Ooooh, I'm resisting stirring the pot.  I want to but I'll refrain  
> because I need to get to work and quit reading these things!
>
> You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.  
> See how _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80

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From bwanapc at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 13:46:18 2008
From: bwanapc at gmail.com (Jonathan Bainbridge)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:46:18 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 29
In-Reply-To: <004b01c9366d$4acaa720$2202a8c0@Desktophp>
References: <mailman.833.1224870280.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
	<004b01c9366d$4acaa720$2202a8c0@Desktophp>
Message-ID: <e04aa3030810281246u1f89e02dh40988ff517f81ae3@mail.gmail.com>

I'm interested in this Socialism charge laid on the Democrat party and their
candidate.

*Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization
advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of
production and distribution of goods, ..*.  - Wikipedia

My question here;
What is the redistribution of wealth based upon taxation of tax payers to be
called? We, and our children and our children's children are being taxed to
"bale out" banks and lending institutions. I believe the redistribution of
wealth will be in excess of $1,500,000,000,000 when all of the "bale outs
are added up.

Since the charge against the democrats is redistribution of wealth, wouldn't
that charge also be laid at Geo Bush number two and the Republicrats? The US
Government now hold shares in the 7 largest US banks, all so the banks could
gain the "bale out" money. So that would mean that we now have collective
ownership, redistribution and administration by the Federal Reserve. An
organization staffed by appointees of ... Geo Bush the second. Socialism,
even before that bad old man Barak gets his fingers on the reins of power.
So he won't be able to introduce Socialism, becasue it is already here.

Signed - Jon, a registered Republicrat (but I'm sure not voteing for
McPalin... nor BarakDen for that matter)

> SNIP
> A couple of months ago they wrote an article titled, "Barack Obama's
Stealth
> Socialism," making a reasoned and documented case that Obama is in fact a
> socialist. They reported the socialist influences he has embraced in his
> journey of self discovery, including the influence of his socialist
leaning
> father. They point out that in his book dedicated to the memory of his
> father, he never once mentions his father's well known and documented
> political activities in Kenya.
>SNIP
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From bwanapc at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 14:04:27 2008
From: bwanapc at gmail.com (Jonathan Bainbridge)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:04:27 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 29
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W71FD9AA56BC046D57650A882B0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.833.1224870280.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
	<BAY112-W71FD9AA56BC046D57650A882B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <e04aa3030810281304o26451430x9f3b3eea42d4344f@mail.gmail.com>

>SNIP

> And about your thoughts on 40 years of oil available...Lets see in the last
> 40 years we have improved our hospitals in technology/ communications(cell
> phones, gps) transportation, medicines etc...So that has no merits
> whatsoever- hopefully in 40 years we will have better fuel alternatives-
> better medicines better health plans... All I know is my dad lived longer
> because of better medicines and my father in law/mother in law and wifes
> grandma is alive because scientist did not give up. steve
>
>SNIP
>

Wow, bad old Socialist medicine has got to be worse right? Any Canadians
want to weigh in on this? My Mother in Law is on the other side of 80, so is
my Father in Law, they live in and use Canadian Socialist medicine. My
Mother in Law is a Cancer survivor, treated with Canadian Socialist
medicine.

Transportation - Flying is great and fun (strip down, no shoes, no belt, $5
coffee on board (been there), no trains, at least gas is cheap again.

What do telecommunications devices created and built overseas have to do
with oil. Other than it is built in outsourced factories and shipped back to
laid off factory workers employed at McDs?

We won't have any better fuel alternatives in 40 years with a Republicrat
agenda. Who canned the mileage requirements enacted during Carter's time,
let's see Geo Bush numero uno, who canned the mileage requirements enacted
during Clinton's time, let's see Geo Bush numero 2, do we see a pattern
here. There will not be a change in oil policy while the Republicrat agenda
is in power.
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From bwanapc at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 14:08:56 2008
From: bwanapc at gmail.com (Jonathan Bainbridge)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:08:56 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] prayer request
In-Reply-To: <844960.24442.qm@web45601.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <844960.24442.qm@web45601.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e04aa3030810281308l71944197h32139fcfeb03b921@mail.gmail.com>

Update from Gary Allen's Facebook - Tues AM Bruce update - Dad said the
Bruce is now on a ventilator and his kidneys have shut down. We're an hour
away from there.

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:44 AM, Deanna Brown <brown.deanna at yahoo.com>wrote:

> For those of you who have not been notified by facebook, Randy Allen's
> younger brother Bruce is in ICU in San Antonio, TX with pancreatitis. He
> went into cardiac arrest yesterday, but is stablized somewhat. They are
> watching for kidney failure. Please pray for Bruce, his wife, Laura and his
> two children, Abby and Caroline. Also pray for Bruce's parents and siblings,
> Gary, Valerie and Randy as they travel to SA to be with Bruce and his
> family. This is all I know at the moment. If there is someone on this list
> that would prefer an email update to facebook, let me know, and I will
> continue to update. Deanna
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 28 16:54:35 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:54:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] no fear
Message-ID: <223917.65036.qm@web34701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

HEY MEL? it's a step toward human enlightenment that within the last yr the catholic church made up a new sin called something like "crimes against nature" (meaning conscious large scale pollution, nothing to do with driving trucks -? yet).??? this is an awareness step forward... someday these big beasts, my titan included, will all be landfill.???? 
(say.? maybe someday the pope will?decree that?the earth has been adequately populated....?
? 
Norman?how did you even find electric cars for the city of Austin??? only a few celebs got to test-drive some for a?couple yrs,? then didnt get to keep or buy them, and now the US only exports to europe... is my understanding.??? is it true???? (more fossil fuel lobbying??). 

in case,? if?anyone is voting based on fear hopefully this helps:? ?7?MD's i know,?(surgeons mostly) have voted obama,?expecting to?pay?higher taxes under his plan.???? (i honestly dont know how?most colleagues?will vote,?only close friends.. arizona will probably go McCain anyway).? 
those?7?contributed and some?maxed out the contribution limit for obama's campaign.?? 
i know there are?some?americans who?only vote?on behalf of their own pockets, but just so you know this:
there are many who are willing to pay higher taxes if we can redirect our country's priorities:? stress education, cover everyones?healthcare (we pay for it sooner or later anyway),?stop spending the next 3 - 4 generations resources, start getting along with the rest of the world again.??? never mind address the iraq thing...

i also know 3 very?bright and wealthy people who voted for McCain,?but hopefully if he?does get?elected, he'll have the stamina for 4 yrs because Palin's knowledge base is?bothering both dems and republicans.

anyone with fear? -? get knowledge instead. 

my cat deleted the rest of this e-mail so you guys?lucked out.?
john i ordered "penny" and mark i ordered "eboo" on amazon.

peace you guys.?? randy i'll pray for your family -? wow.? 
the surgical resident's rule is "eat when you can, sleep when you can, and stay away from the pancreas".?? scary business.?? if you have?medical questions i'm happy to discuss.??? take care?? -?? julie

|



? 


?



________________________________
From: Melanie Phifer <mphifer63 at hotmail.com>
To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 4:03:35 AM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] responses and more pot stirring


Oh great!? Now I'm immoral for the make of my car!? ;)? In her defense she is over 10 years old and still gets 24 miles to the gallon in town.? We have a deep relationship and I can't seem to part with her and cram the carseats in a Corolla.? Partly because it's inconvenient and partly because I can't afford car payments anymore!
?
Yes, Mark. I would say the fear tactic works pretty well.? I recall my first election in the states in college.? When I woke up?on election morning there was a door hanger on my dorm room doorknob that said "You could wake up tomorrow with Mondale as your President.? If that doesn't scare you, it should.... VOTE!"? On the back it listed all the scary things about Mondale.? I was motivated to get out there like a linebacker pushing people aside and rushing into the inzone to cast my vote before evil took over.?I hope I don't scare as easily now!
?
Thanks John!? That's what I'm talking about!? Good information and some serious common sense!? Thanks for the recommendation on the book.? I heard Glen Beck talk about that book last week.? Now that you've recommended it I'll definitely have to look for it.? I need to understand the economy better than I do.? Think I'll get my mom a copy, too.? She needs another source than Fox News for sure!
?
Ooooh, I'm resisting stirring the pot.? I want to but I'll refrain because I need to get to work and quit reading these things!
________________________________
You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. See how 


      
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From randanallen at juno.com  Tue Oct 28 17:16:17 2008
From: randanallen at juno.com (randanallen at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:16:17 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] prayer request
Message-ID: <20081028.181618.2656.1.randanallen@juno.com>

This is Dana for Randy. Keep praying. Things don't look well for Bruce.
His kidneys and liver are shutting down. The doctor said this afternoon
that he is tinkering in the middle and he could go either way right now.
If he does recover, he is looking at months of recovery. Thanks Deanna
for letting everyone know. 
____________________________________________________________
Are you safe? Click for quotes on a home security system. 
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3ni3cloeR8wKXdQSxZaKRL6tmzPG4ThBDS2ziGVQv6CAqjMb/


From jgarmes at msn.com  Tue Oct 28 17:31:33 2008
From: jgarmes at msn.com (John Armes)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:31:33 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] Extra reading
In-Reply-To: <223917.65036.qm@web34701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <223917.65036.qm@web34701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU134-DAV38D87E8D5E813802A2D71A0270@phx.gbl>

Hey Julie and Mel,
  I hope you enjoy reading the book!  A third grader could read it and  
that s why I liked it!!  Two other books I've read that are a lot more  
difficult are: " The Truth About Money" by Ric Eldelman (a non- 
Christian perspective, but good), and " Faithful Finances 101: From  
the Poverty of Fear & Greed to the Riches of Spiritual Investing" by  
Gary Moore who is an economist. And if these are not enough, there is  
another book by Phil Town called, " Rule # One" you ming find  
interesting.  This one is more geared for those trying to figure out  
wonderful companies to invest in and when.
On Oct 28, 2008, at 4:54 PM, JULIE LINDHOLM wrote:

> HEY MEL  it's a step toward human enlightenment that within the last  
> yr the catholic church made up a new sin called something like  
> "crimes against nature" (meaning conscious large scale pollution,  
> nothing to do with driving trucks -  yet).    this is an awareness  
> step forward... someday these big beasts, my titan included, will  
> all be landfill.
> (say.  maybe someday the pope will decree that the earth has been  
> adequately populated....
>
> Norman how did you even find electric cars for the city of Austin?    
> only a few celebs got to test-drive some for a couple yrs,  then  
> didnt get to keep or buy them, and now the US only exports to  
> europe... is my understanding.    is it true?    (more fossil fuel  
> lobbying ?).
>
> in case,  if anyone is voting based on fear hopefully this helps:    
> 7 MD's i know, (surgeons mostly) have voted obama, expecting to pay  
> higher taxes under his plan.     (i honestly dont know how most  
> colleagues will vote, only close friends.. arizona will probably go  
> McCain anyway).
> those 7 contributed and some maxed out the contribution limit for  
> obama's campaign.
> i know there are some americans who only vote on behalf of their own  
> pockets, but just so you know this:
> there are many who are willing to pay higher taxes if we can  
> redirect our country's priorities:  stress education, cover  
> everyones healthcare (we pay for it sooner or later anyway), stop  
> spending the next 3 - 4 generations resources, start getting along  
> with the rest of the world again.    never mind address the iraq  
> thing...
>
> i also know 3 very bright and wealthy people who voted for McCain,  
> but hopefully if he does get elected, he'll have the stamina for 4  
> yrs because Palin's knowledge base is bothering both dems and  
> republicans.
>
> anyone with fear  -  get knowledge instead.
>
> my cat deleted the rest of this e-mail so you guys lucked out.
> john i ordered "penny" and mark i ordered "eboo" on amazon.
>
> peace you guys.   randy i'll pray for your family -  wow.
> the surgical resident's rule is "eat when you can, sleep when you  
> can, and stay away from the pancreas".   scary business.   if you  
> have medical questions i'm happy to discuss.    take care   -   julie
>
> |
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Melanie Phifer <mphifer63 at hotmail.com>
> To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 4:03:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] responses and more pot stirring
>
> Oh great!  Now I'm immoral for the make of my car!  ;)  In her  
> defense she is over 10 years old and still gets 24 miles to the  
> gallon in town.  We have a deep relationship and I can't seem to  
> part with her and cram the carseats in a Corolla.  Partly because  
> it's inconvenient and partly because I can't afford car payments  
> anymore!
>
> Yes, Mark. I would say the fear tactic works pretty well.  I recall  
> my first election in the states in college.  When I woke up on  
> election morning there was a door hanger on my dorm room doorknob  
> that said "You could wake up tomorrow with Mondale as your  
> President.  If that doesn't scare you, it should.... VOTE!"  On the  
> back it listed all the scary things about Mondale.  I was motivated  
> to get out there like a linebacker pushing people aside and rushing  
> into the inzone to cast my vote before evil took over. I hope I  
> don't scare as easily now!
>
> Thanks John!  That's what I'm talking about!  Good information and  
> some serious common sense!  Thanks for the recommendation on the  
> book.  I heard Glen Beck talk about that book last week.  Now that  
> you've recommended it I'll definitely have to look for it.  I need  
> to understand the economy better than I do.  Think I'll get my mom a  
> copy, too.  She needs another source than Fox News for sure!
>
> Ooooh, I'm resisting stirring the pot.  I want to but I'll refrain  
> because I need to get to work and quit reading these things!
>
> You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.  
> See how
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80

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From gijoe1lt at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 28 18:39:26 2008
From: gijoe1lt at hotmail.com (Stephen M H)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:39:26 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 37
In-Reply-To: <mailman.888.1225236063.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.888.1225236063.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W2969CBB281807CFBFD6EC288260@phx.gbl>


Johnathan:  yea yea - the plan was agreed on by both parties.. And if your were a fly I bet you would found out that it was pushed by more demofats than Republicans...So talking about Bush II... and not enough oil for 40 years... what do you want? spaceships or what? give me a break on the Bush vetoing the car mileage law- I just looked up Michigan and guess what- Democrats are the majority so I am guessing it was the same ohhhh politics up there - and guess what state would be a big loser if that stayed a law? The city would be Detroit and their UNION JOBS..
 
So to those up North- would you tell your tax rate up there? Cost of living? Vehicle cost? Basic food costs? Cost of gas? Cost of a two bedroom apartment? Cost of a 3 bedroom house? Just want to know what you have to pay to get your socialistic medicines that Johnathan is raving about?  
 
Julie: Glad you want to pay more taxes...Email Obama if he wins and tell him your willing to pay more with your friends names...just leave my name out...I pay enough in taxes..
 
_________________________________________________________________
Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008
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From Swissmiss at compuserve.com  Tue Oct 28 22:26:22 2008
From: Swissmiss at compuserve.com (Nancy Maillefer)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 00:26:22 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] praying over the pot instead of stirring it!??
Message-ID: <200810290026_MC3-2-157D-5A88@compuserve.com>

A long time ago, Julie asked me if I was really tired of politics.........
well, I hate to be a wet towel but yes, I am. Perhaps instead of stirring
the pot for a week, we could just pray every time we want to write an email
about this instead. I hardly believe anyone has changed their opinion about
their future president after all these emails and will certainly not change
it in the next week which is why I find these debates useless.

I am, on the other hand, ashamed to say that I have not prayed near enough
for this situation and now find I cannot vote because I haven't lived here
30 days and didn't get the absentee ballot in time. However, I know God is
big enough to handle the situation without any of our votes but we are
called to pray for those in leadership whether they're Republican or
Democratic. 

Perhaps a week of silence would be golden because I shudder to think how
much more party stabbing will go on after the vote? Either way half the
country is going to carry it on in deep bitterness, which should call us to
prayer regardless of which side we are on. "A house divided against itself
cannot stand.", it says!! 

If we believe God is sovereign, wouldn't the time to read all these emails
be much more valuable if used in prayer?

Sorry,
The party pooper..........



From msharp01 at ameritech.net  Tue Oct 28 23:05:08 2008
From: msharp01 at ameritech.net (Mark Sharp)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:05:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] praying over the pot instead of stirring it!??
Message-ID: <515724.79993.qm@web83103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hey Nancy:

Thanks for jumping in.  As far as prayer goes.  I think God created us as social beings and expected us to interact with each other, so I'm not sure time spent praying rather than communicating would be time better spent. Besides, aren't we supposed to "pray without seizing?"  Can't emailing be approached in an attitude of prayer?  I'm certainly not claiming to have done that.

You bring up another good point about the aftermath of the election.  I will be bitterly disappointed if the socialist muslim doesn't win, but I will work to not just be oppositional and a stick in the mud, contrarian, obstructionist and try to be open to the positive possibilities.  There was a time, several years ago when I identified John McCain as one republican I could potentially vote for.  It was a different John McCain than has been running, but hope (and prayer) springs eternal.

Mark



----- Original Message ----
From: Nancy Maillefer <Swissmiss at compuserve.com>
To: RVA <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 11:26:22 PM
Subject: [ClassOf80] praying over the pot instead of stirring it!??

A long time ago, Julie asked me if I was really tired of politics.........
well, I hate to be a wet towel but yes, I am. Perhaps instead of stirring
the pot for a week, we could just pray every time we want to write an email
about this instead. I hardly believe anyone has changed their opinion about
their future president after all these emails and will certainly not change
it in the next week which is why I find these debates useless.

I am, on the other hand, ashamed to say that I have not prayed near enough
for this situation and now find I cannot vote because I haven't lived here
30 days and didn't get the absentee ballot in time. However, I know God is
big enough to handle the situation without any of our votes but we are
called to pray for those in leadership whether they're Republican or
Democratic. 

Perhaps a week of silence would be golden because I shudder to think how
much more party stabbing will go on after the vote? Either way half the
country is going to carry it on in deep bitterness, which should call us to
prayer regardless of which side we are on. "A house divided against itself
cannot stand.", it says!! 

If we believe God is sovereign, wouldn't the time to read all these emails
be much more valuable if used in prayer?

Sorry,
The party pooper..........


_______________________________________________
ClassOf80 mailing list
ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
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From lindholmsi at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 29 06:45:29 2008
From: lindholmsi at yahoo.com (JULIE LINDHOLM)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 05:45:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] praying over the pot instead of stirring it!??
Message-ID: <604949.11615.qm@web34705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

steve, ya got me there... yes i?admit i'm willing to share, and also i'm not alone.??

nancy, praying is always vital, but elections (especially this one) are?key to our future. 

i can promise if you hit "delete" on any of my e-mails?in the next few days, you wont miss a thing.

how's it going?at the pregnant-mom-house???? do you get time to read, or do the girls?take up all your time??? do you get to go out?????is?this job?a good application of your?counselling experience?? probably?more intersting than?caring for?the granny ????? ??what topics are you more interested in discussing?? 

i remember the days of hot theology debates, and sometime along there amstutz requested light banter instead...? i'm sure it's fine with everyone, no matter what you want to discuss.???? i always liked deanna's lifestyle dialogues.?? i like the energy and hydrogen discussions, mark's psychology and tory's theology, i like the canadian view but you guys should speak up more, and steve i like hearing from you in iraq and texas.??it's good that?you keep sluggin' it out with us.? ?john armes finance classes are actually interesting, (and maybe you guys can comprehend suze ormann but i rather hear from john anyday).?? mel i like your texas brand of worldview, and common sense and mothering.??peter if you're out there reading this, casting out demons, i think you are the bravest and most adventuresome of all of us.? ?and whoever i missed.? i say,? throw anything in the pot and stir like hell... and definitely keep praying.

love to all -? julie


      
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From jgarmes at msn.com  Wed Oct 29 07:42:21 2008
From: jgarmes at msn.com (John Armes)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 07:42:21 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] praying over the pot instead of stirring it!??
In-Reply-To: <604949.11615.qm@web34705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <604949.11615.qm@web34705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU134-DAV3763EDDFFD20692BF6002A0260@phx.gbl>

Thanks Julie for your vote of confidence,
  Although Suze Ormann is an unabashed professing lesbian, she does  
speak straight on finances and gives people right advice on who to  
become debt free.  I use some of her products in developing Wills and  
Trusts.  Dave Ramsey is a great Christian motivator and advocate for  
getting people to change from being in debt to being wealthy.   Money  
and Math are amoral, which allows me to use what anyone offers.   Just  
because something is not "christian"  or taught by a Christian,  
doesn't mean truth can't come out.  Glen Beck is a Mormon,  but what  
he say on his programs does make sense.    I'm thankful for my  
teachers who taught me math like Virginia Toms and Warren Day.  John
On Oct 29, 2008, at 6:45 AM, JULIE LINDHOLM wrote:

> steve, ya got me there... yes i admit i'm willing to share, and also  
> i'm not alone.
>
> nancy, praying is always vital, but elections (especially this one)  
> are key to our future.
>
> i can promise if you hit "delete" on any of my e-mails in the next  
> few days, you wont miss a thing.
>
> how's it going at the pregnant-mom-house??   do you get time to  
> read, or do the girls take up all your time?   do you get to go  
> out?    is this job a good application of your counselling  
> experience?  probably more intersting than caring for the  
> granny ??      what topics are you more interested in discussing?
>
> i remember the days of hot theology debates, and sometime along  
> there amstutz requested light banter instead...  i'm sure it's fine  
> with everyone, no matter what you want to discuss.     i always  
> liked deanna's lifestyle dialogues.   i like the energy and hydrogen  
> discussions, mark's psychology and tory's theology, i like the  
> canadian view but you guys should speak up more, and steve i like  
> hearing from you in iraq and texas.  it's good that you keep  
> sluggin' it out with us.   john armes finance classes are actually  
> interesting, (and maybe you guys can comprehend suze ormann but i  
> rather hear from john anyday).   mel i like your texas brand of  
> worldview, and common sense and mothering.  peter if you're out  
> there reading this, casting out demons, i think you are the bravest  
> and most adventuresome of all of us.   and whoever i missed.  i  
> say,  throw anything in the pot and stir like hell... and definitely  
> keep praying.
>
> love to all -  julie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80

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From bwanapc at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 12:46:21 2008
From: bwanapc at gmail.com (Jonathan Bainbridge)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:46:21 -0600
Subject: [ClassOf80] praying over the pot instead of stirring it!??
In-Reply-To: <BLU134-DAV3763EDDFFD20692BF6002A0260@phx.gbl>
References: <604949.11615.qm@web34705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<BLU134-DAV3763EDDFFD20692BF6002A0260@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <e04aa3030810291146p300daa7fg2f9218eb7edbd12d@mail.gmail.com>

Virginia and Warren, DUDE, I'm still scared to call them anything BUT Miss
Toms, MR Day, and Miss Winterberg, and I think I always will be ... I still
worry that Mr Day will walk up behind me like he did during Midterm in Ninth
grade, OH the terror, and the flashlights on the tennis courts... well...

>SNIP
>
>    I'm thankful for my teachers who taught me math like Virginia Toms and
> Warren Day.  John
> On Oct 29, 2008, at 6:45 AM, JULIE LINDHOLM wrote:
>
> >SNIP
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From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 29 15:32:55 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:32:55 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] prayer request
In-Reply-To: <844960.24442.qm@web45601.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <844960.24442.qm@web45601.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W17A6E75DC9387B3DE0629EA7260@phx.gbl>

Has anybody heard any updates on Bruce?  He's been on my mind all day today so heavily.
_________________________________________________________________
When your life is on the go?take your life with you.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/
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From bwanapc at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 16:00:39 2008
From: bwanapc at gmail.com (Jonathan Bainbridge)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:00:39 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] prayer request
In-Reply-To: <BAY137-W17A6E75DC9387B3DE0629EA7260@phx.gbl>
References: <844960.24442.qm@web45601.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<BAY137-W17A6E75DC9387B3DE0629EA7260@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <e04aa3030810291500j7cd68a34q7d4b4ab3bfa6e860@mail.gmail.com>

This the latest on Gary Allen's Facebook - "Gary - Wed. AM Bruce Update -
some positive news. Bruce's heart rate has gone from 146 to 114. Also, they
are starting dialysis now to help his kidneys. More later."

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Melanie Phifer <mphifer63 at hotmail.com>wrote:

> Has anybody heard any updates on Bruce?  He's been on my mind all day today
> so heavily.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> When your life is on the go?take your life with you. Try Windows Mobile(R)
> today <http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ClassOf80 mailing list
> ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
> http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80
>
>
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From brown.deanna at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 29 17:03:29 2008
From: brown.deanna at yahoo.com (Deanna Brown)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:03:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] prayer request
Message-ID: <165352.12800.qm@web45606.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I just checked all my sources and came up empty. I am sure they are otherwise occupied, but I sure would like to hear something....




________________________________
From: Melanie Phifer <mphifer63 at hotmail.com>
To: RVA class of '80 <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:32:55 PM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] prayer request

Has anybody heard any updates on Bruce?? He's been on my mind all day today so heavily.



________________________________
When your life is on the go?take your life with you. Try Windows Mobile? today 


      
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From randanallen at juno.com  Wed Oct 29 21:25:17 2008
From: randanallen at juno.com (randanallen at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:25:17 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] prayer request
Message-ID: <20081029.222520.2316.1.randanallen@juno.com>

Put on dialysis and responded well. His fever and heartrate have come
down which are good signs. Still a long way to go. 
____________________________________________________________
Compete with the big boys.  Click here to find products to benefit your business.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m7tDMJG7UuxT6zZn47erW8ghXKgP64ymMza9EMq3UPJCw2L/


From brown.deanna at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 29 21:47:33 2008
From: brown.deanna at yahoo.com (Deanna Brown)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] from Val's facebook - Janice feel free to pass it on
Message-ID: <18939.76362.qm@web45610.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

We're cautiously optimistic, Bruce's heart rate has gone down from 147 to 111, his potassium levels have reduced (both good things!), he was able to start dialysis this morning & it has gone so well that instead of having him on for 24 hrs as originally planned, they're planning to take him off around 7 pm tonight. We know alot is still needed for Bruce to recover, he's not out of the woods by any means. We feel such a wonderful power of prayer from so many people we know & don't know, you'll never know how much it means to us. Mom & Dad will stay in SA a few more days. I'll post another update as I hear anything more tonight. I just wanna hug you all!!!!!!! =)


      



From jennyishome at austin.rr.com  Thu Oct 30 14:33:34 2008
From: jennyishome at austin.rr.com (Jenny Holloway)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:33:34 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Deanna
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1225389603.6228.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.5.1225389603.6228.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <7A66ACAB1BA54C5C86D06DDD0E572CA7@gijenn34PC>

Deanna, I am so sorry I didn't know Bruce was part of your family. He is in 
my thoughts and Prayers and thanks for the update.
Jenny
Jenny and Steve Holloway

http://www.mymangosteen.com/distributors/jholloway/

I am a princess... my Father is the King of Kings!

Stop telling God how big your storm is.......instead
tell your storm HOW BIG YOUR GOD IS!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Deanna Brown <brown.deanna at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [ClassOf80] from Val's facebook - Janice feel free to pass it
> on
> To: RVA <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Message-ID: <18939.76362.qm at web45610.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> We're cautiously optimistic, Bruce's heart rate has gone down from 147 to 
> 111, his potassium levels have reduced (both good things!), he was able to 
> start dialysis this morning & it has gone so well that instead of having 
> him on for 24 hrs as originally planned, they're planning to take him off 
> around 7 pm tonight. We know alot is still needed for Bruce to recover, 
> he's not out of the woods by any means. We feel such a wonderful power of 
> prayer from so many people we know & don't know, you'll never know how 
> much it means to us. Mom & Dad will stay in SA a few more days. I'll post 
> another update as I hear anything more tonight. I just wanna hug you 
> all!!!!!!! =) 



From brown.deanna at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 30 17:57:47 2008
From: brown.deanna at yahoo.com (Deanna Brown)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:57:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] Deanna
Message-ID: <941346.55032.qm@web45601.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No, he is not a member of my family, he is a member of Randy and Dana Allen's famiy. He is Randy's younger brother I guess the confusion came with my putting important information in the subject line. That was a quote from Randy's sister's facebook. Sorry for the confusion. D



----- Original Message ----
From: Jenny Holloway <jennyishome at austin.rr.com>
To: classof80 at rvaalumni.org
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 3:33:34 PM
Subject: Re: [ClassOf80] Deanna

Deanna, I am so sorry I didn't know Bruce was part of your family. He is in 
my thoughts and Prayers and thanks for the update.
Jenny
Jenny and Steve Holloway

http://www.mymangosteen.com/distributors/jholloway/

I am a princess... my Father is the King of Kings!

Stop telling God how big your storm is.......instead
tell your storm HOW BIG YOUR GOD IS!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Deanna Brown <brown.deanna at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [ClassOf80] from Val's facebook - Janice feel free to pass it
> on
> To: RVA <classof80 at rvaalumni.org>
> Message-ID: <18939.76362.qm at web45610.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> We're cautiously optimistic, Bruce's heart rate has gone down from 147 to 
> 111, his potassium levels have reduced (both good things!), he was able to 
> start dialysis this morning & it has gone so well that instead of having 
> him on for 24 hrs as originally planned, they're planning to take him off 
> around 7 pm tonight. We know alot is still needed for Bruce to recover, 
> he's not out of the woods by any means. We feel such a wonderful power of 
> prayer from so many people we know & don't know, you'll never know how 
> much it means to us. Mom & Dad will stay in SA a few more days. I'll post 
> another update as I hear anything more tonight. I just wanna hug you 
> all!!!!!!! =) 


_______________________________________________
ClassOf80 mailing list
ClassOf80 at rvaalumni.org
http://www.rvaalumni.org/mailman/listinfo/classof80



      



From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 30 19:03:22 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:03:22 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Bruce Allen
In-Reply-To: <941346.55032.qm@web45601.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <941346.55032.qm@web45601.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W20650FE17F58C7BDFB1268A7200@phx.gbl>

http://www.caringbridge.org/cb/viewGuestbook.do?method=executeInit
 
A Caring Bridge site has been set up for Bruce that will help keep us updated.
_________________________________________________________________
You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/
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From brown.deanna at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 31 07:08:26 2008
From: brown.deanna at yahoo.com (Deanna Brown)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 06:08:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ClassOf80] caring bridge
Message-ID: <584179.61434.qm@web45616.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I couldn't get the site to work with the way you had it listed - in case others can't, try this: www.caringbridge.org/visit/bruceallen



      



From mphifer63 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 31 09:41:36 2008
From: mphifer63 at hotmail.com (Melanie Phifer)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:41:36 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] caring bridge
In-Reply-To: <584179.61434.qm@web45616.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <584179.61434.qm@web45616.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY137-W8E5083175B41B8919A920A7200@phx.gbl>

Thanks Deanna.  I'm sure I just clicked on the address in my toolbar as I was in the site and pasted it to the email.  I should have done that at the very beginning.  Thanks for sending a workable address out!
 
Happy Halloween everybody!  Make your buckets be full of candy corn and chocolate!  :)
_________________________________________________________________
Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008
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From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 17:13:01 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (kewlbigdan)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:13:01 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] ClassOf80 Digest, Vol 57, Issue 38
In-Reply-To: <mailman.891.1225256721.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
References: <mailman.891.1225256721.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
Message-ID: <F849DFC8-1A48-4D94-B7B8-1F1B2A12E4E8@gmail.com>


Hey I'm back. Had a fantastic time and really glad to see that the  
debate goes on and on and on and on and like Nancy, I really doubt  
anyone will change their minds over what we say as we all know the  
Liberal Left Wing Pinko-Commie Socialist Obamaites are stubborn and  
wouldn't change their minds if he grew horns and called himself the  
anti-christ. But lets not delve into name-calling, since your vote  
really doesn't directly matter one iota in who actually gets to be  
president. The electoral college decides who is president, not your  
vote. In fact, There is no constitutional right for the gov't to allow  
people to actually vote for president. That right is invested solely  
in the Electoral college. The whole "Popular Vote" is just that, a  
popularity contest. The individual state legislators can send  
electoral representative to vote however they want. There has only  
been one case in history that an electoral vote was in opposite with  
the popular vote in one section but there is always the chance it  
could happen again someday.

So as you head for the voting booth this tuesday, remember that you  
are actually not voting for anything. Its just symbolic.

9 out of 10 plumbers recommend McCain, and unlike doctors, want to pay  
less taxes so they can grow their businesses, employ more workers, and  
help the economy. Oddly enough, the plumbing industry is not about to  
be socialized, So unless somehow we think Doctors are more politically  
astute than plumbers, I don't think valuing Doctors or even  
Celebrities as experts on who we should vote for are relevant.

I just wish that all the Hollywood crowd that said they were going to  
move to Canada if Bush got elected...would have!!

Now onto more fun things.....Can you believe I flew not once, but  
twice through Fiji, and never saw the island. (It was always night) 


From kewlbigdan at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 19:23:38 2008
From: kewlbigdan at gmail.com (kewlbigdan)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 21:23:38 -0400
Subject: [ClassOf80] New Zealand
Message-ID: <8C9F0EED-BC79-46C1-B83B-E0502C9828D5@gmail.com>

New Zealand
Some thoughts from NZ trip. I had a good look around the New Zealand  
political scene where after 12 years of socialist gov't (Labour Party)  
the country is kicking them to the curb and voting 2/3 rds  
Conservative (National Party). this is the country where Socialized  
medicine was the epitome of social engineering. Its also the place  
where our 99 year old Gran is deemed unworthy to receive treatment  
because of her age. Its a matter of supply/demand and benefit. There  
is a great demand and a fixed supply, so those not able to contribute  
to the greater society good are put at the bottom of the list. My  
father-in-law was in the same category and died before his turn came  
up. This is the net result of socialized medicine. Euthanasia.
NZ has a population of 3 million ( and 60 million sheep but thats  
another story), and 1 million people are on 'the dole' or as we know  
it, welfare. Hence 1/3 of the population still voting for the Labour  
Party. Most of the 1 million people are the native Maori tribe, who  
conquered the previously native tribe of Mauri (almost same spelling  
but pronounced differently) by defeating them and eating them. ( the  
Maori were cannibals). In the past 12 years of Labour party politics,  
it was deemed politically correct to pay reparations to the Maori  
tribe for being conquered by the British. It was then deem PC to say  
that all descendants of Maori were allowed without precondition to be  
on the dole and receive Gov't everything. The maori then claimed  
rights to all waterways, fish, birds, and trees, of which the tribe is  
paid royalties. They are now claiming the air and the airways and it  
has broken the back of the Labour Party. With taxes of 40% on anyone  
earning more than US$30,000 and 15% sales tax, there is a grow  
resentment among the working classes. Already NZ had to disband both  
their navy and air-force because of lack of funds, and there is a  
estimated 30% exodus of skilled NZ workers to Australia. NZ is  
importing Asian, Indian and South African blue collar workers to  
supplement the eroding workforce and 70% of retail stores are now  
owned by these immigrants. But what is happening is these same  
immigrants are refusing to pay for the ever increasing Welfare system  
of the local Maori tribes. Since the Maori conquered and ate for  
dinner the previous native tribe, there is no one left to make a claim  
contrary to the original ownership of the New Zealand Land.
So the moral of the story is to find a democrat and eat them if you  
want to win this election.

On other good news, New Zealand does have One flush toilets. Unlike  
the save-the-water-low-flush toilets we have here in the US that  
require 8 flushes to get the thing to go down, they have these huge  
tanks that look like Niagara falls when you flush them. And there was  
a satisfying gurgle when it finished.
That'll do, toilet, That'll do.


From lbainbridge at avmi.org  Fri Oct 31 23:47:51 2008
From: lbainbridge at avmi.org (Bainbridge, Lynda)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 00:47:51 -0500
Subject: [ClassOf80] Welcome back
In-Reply-To: <F849DFC8-1A48-4D94-B7B8-1F1B2A12E4E8@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.891.1225256721.855.classof80@rvaalumni.org>
	<F849DFC8-1A48-4D94-B7B8-1F1B2A12E4E8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14EF2ED28257BC499340D71BC5E93A8D22406B@exchangesrv1.us.gmu.org>

I have not felt like anyone has really been trying to convince anyone to
change their vote, but rather sharing their viewpoints and sometimes
their presidential candidate choice.  Do you think anything you have
said has convinced anyone to vote for McCain?  Has that been your
intent?  If so, I missed it - I thought you were just disagreeing and
expressing an opinion that I am guessing most on this list were/are
willing to listen to.  I am open to listening to what everyone has to
say - doesn't mean I buy it.

I'm really surprised nobody brought up the whole Electoral College thing
before now. What do you all think?  Is that whole method of voting
outdated?

I have to go with Mel on the whole tax issue.  I really don't think that
the general middle-class having a few more dollars to spend is going to
do much for the economy.  Look what progress the stimulus checks did for
the economy this year.  I'm not saying the plumbers aren't going to go
out there and buy a new big screen TV instead of paying down their
credit card debt, but I do know for a fact that the tighter big business
gets squeezed, the more they are going to move business overseas taking
all those jobs with them.

As far as discussing politics ad nauseum - yeah it gets old and I will
be glad to hear the last campaign ad locally and nationally, but the
issues aren't going to go away and we don't have to use this forum to
discuss them - nobody is forcing anybody to read or write anything and
obviously some people hit the big "D" whenever they see who the message
is from, but I do think we have a responsibility to care about the
future of the country (I'm not even a US citizen), but there are lots of
issues that seem too big to handle, but we can impact them in one way or
another.

I have heard Randy's comment from teachers many times when I go to
parent-teacher meetings.  Your kid isn't the one, whose parents I wish
were here kind of sentiment and I absolutely agree that family is huge,
but the government does have a responsibility to use our tax dollars
wisely and that ain't happening right now.

Late night thoughts . . . . Lynda




-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of kewlbigdan

Hey I'm back. Had a fantastic time and really glad to see that the  
debate goes on and on and on and on and like Nancy, I really doubt  
anyone will change their minds over what we say as we all know the  
Liberal Left Wing Pinko-Commie Socialist Obamaites are stubborn and  
wouldn't change their minds if he grew horns and called himself the  
anti-christ. But lets not delve into name-calling, since your vote  
really doesn't directly matter one iota in who actually gets to be  
president. The electoral college decides who is president, not your  
vote. In fact, There is no constitutional right for the gov't to allow  
people to actually vote for president. That right is invested solely  
in the Electoral college. The whole "Popular Vote" is just that, a  
popularity contest. The individual state legislators can send  
electoral representative to vote however they want. There has only  
been one case in history that an electoral vote was in opposite with  
the popular vote in one section but there is always the chance it  
could happen again someday.

So as you head for the voting booth this tuesday, remember that you  
are actually not voting for anything. Its just symbolic.

9 out of 10 plumbers recommend McCain, and unlike doctors, want to pay  
less taxes so they can grow their businesses, employ more workers, and  
help the economy. Oddly enough, the plumbing industry is not about to  
be socialized, So unless somehow we think Doctors are more politically  
astute than plumbers, I don't think valuing Doctors or even  
Celebrities as experts on who we should vote for are relevant.

I just wish that all the Hollywood crowd that said they were going to  
move to Canada if Bush got elected...would have!!

Now onto more fun things.....Can you believe I flew not once, but  
twice through Fiji, and never saw the island. (It was always night)